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15 Sep 2022 09:42
  • Sleep EZ
  • Sleep EZ's Avatar
We don't normally recommend the Hybrid for folks 230 pounds and up because there's a good chance that it leads to back pain from a lack of support from the coils. If you were to choose the 360 though, I'd recommend medium Talalay for the top layer, for sure. Here are a few more details on the differences between the organic mattress and Hybrid mattress, just to help you make the most informed decision on this - Latex and coil hybrids typically last 10-15 years and all-latex mattresses typically last 15-20 years. All-latex mattresses offer a much finer degree of adjustability than latex and coil hybrids do. All-latex mattresses can be adjusted to be slightly softer, moderately softer, much softer, or slightly firmer, moderately firmer, much firmer. You can increase the pressure relief slightly, moderately, or vastly. You can increase the back support slightly, moderately, or vastly. Since latex and coil hybrids normally have only 2 components (3” of latex and the coils) you really have limited options to adjust the mattress, and any change that is made is normally a big change. Not everyone needs the level of adjustability that the all-latex mattress offers. As such, customers will choose latex and coil hybrids if they’re 230 pounds or less; like the feel of a latex and coil hybrid; want a mattress with more edge support than all-latex mattresses; like the lower price point; and / or want to retain some of the feel of a standard spring mattress while getting some of the benefits of latex.
15 Sep 2022 03:45
  • ShopGirl
  • ShopGirl's Avatar

I have been sleeping on a new Naturepedic EOS Classic queen mattress (soft latex, plush coils on both sides) for about 30 days now. I sleep by myself and am 5’ 5”, 150 lbs. The experience has been underwhelming. I am working through the resources on your site (thank you!) and plan to put together a post about it soon to request further guidance.

In the meantime, one of my biggest gripes is that I swear I can feel the comfort layer split right down the middle of the bed. It makes for a very “lumpy” and uneven sleeping experience. I was disappointed to learn that Naturepedic doesn’t have a single comfort layer option for the queen size.

Is this a known issue with Naturepedic beds? Can anything be done to address it?

Thank you.
14 Sep 2022 19:03
  • chickendogma
  • chickendogma's Avatar
Thank you for the recommendation. What about a springs and latex hybrid? Would that be a good mattress for me as well and how would you configure it?
14 Sep 2022 19:03
  • alfie
  • alfie's Avatar
Thanks Basilio, that's super helpful, really appreciate the insight.

I suppose what I'm getting at here is that I want to make sure I get the coil system right for my DIY build (I've decided that spending 3-4x as much on the Naturepedic is not a worthwhile investment). I've narrowed down my build to as follows:

- Split layer Dunlop topper (plush for my side, firm for my wife's side)
- Pocket coil base (I tested both a "firm" and a "plush" coil system at Naturepedic and both my wife and I preferred the firm)

Looking at the DIY companies though, everyone seems to have migrated to the Brooklyn Bedding Ascension coils, with the exception of Arizona Mattress. I have read a lot of complaints on reddit, here and elsewhere about Brooklyn Bedding's change to in-house coils - complaints of sagging and poor durability on posts about both BB itself and Nest. This has given me pause about using their coil system. I don't know how warranted that concern is, but there are a bunchbunch of posts complainingcomplaining about them.

As I say, the only DIY company that seems to still offer L&P coils at this point is Arizona Mattress. They offer both the Caliber Edge 6" and the Quantum Edge Elite 6"Quantum Edge Elite Bolsa 8" . Looking at L&P's product specs, I'm not entirely sure I understand the difference between the two spring systems but it seems like the Calibre Edge 8" has fewer coils and and a firmer ILD than the Quantum Edge:

Wondering what the trade offs are? Does more coils usually mean better quality or better motion isolation? And how significant would the ~100 ILD difference in firmness feel, assuming the exact same topper?
If this is all a moot point and Brooklyn Bedding's coils are largely considered to be of equal quality to L&P, then that would certainly save me a lot of headache here.
14 Sep 2022 17:46
  • Lew
  • Lew's Avatar
Amy, I just came back to this thread after many years, and wonder if you ever got your problem resolved. I bought mine at the County Line store from the owner, Sean.
14 Sep 2022 13:43
  • Brucen50
  • Brucen50's Avatar
Airlooms are way too expensive.

I am thinking about Stearns and Foster Lakeridge from Costco, any opinions on that?
14 Sep 2022 10:52
  • datrumole
  • datrumole's Avatar

More detail would be helpful for some of the combinations you listed. Where is the back pain (lumbar, other?). Are you sinking in too much or too little? Does the discomfort show up within an couple hours of laying on the bed or does it show up sometime early morning?

Any of the combinations give you good spinal alignment but maybe the comfort/pressure relief is slightly off? Any chance you have a muscle imbalance/tightness causing pelvic tilt?

i've found many of the combinations except for 44/44/36 to be exceptional in comfort (that one hurt)

i've love to think i have some sort of issue but after sleeping in other beds, or passing out on my couch one night to have ZERO back pain the next morning, i'm attributing things to the latex

“44d/36d/34d = supportive, thought we had a winner, back still hurt”

What happened here? Still sink in too much? Able to fall asleep for a while but then wake up in the middle of the night?

i dont know how best to describe it. when i lay on my back, everything is nice and comfortable for the most part, however i can feel this sort of pressure initially in the lowest part of my back. my butt sinks just a little too far, pushing the butt down, which then bends the back, the space formed in the lower back is then filled with latex which pushes up on it since it's not heavy enough to sink it. the way i can maybe describe it, is stand up, and try and push the top of your butt up, and that is how it feels on my back. so it's not hammocking, its just bending by back upward

it's not uncommon for my back to be a little tender when i first lay, so after laying for a bit longer, i'll start to feel a very slight discomfort (say an hour or two of watching tv on my back). then in the morning, same, it's a slight discomfort that follows me around for the day, same spot, lower back. falling asleep i will turn on my side, and it feels all good, or so i think, but still in pain in the morning in the same spot

i believe this has to do with the travel the comfort layers allow my butt to sink before hitting a layer that stops it. which is why i tried dunlop. was hoping that the initial softer part of the dunlop would then start to firm up quicker than talalay, stopping the butt travel, however the butt travel is still further than the rest of the body. i dont carry a ton of weight in my upper body, so it doesnt push the same latex travel, thus my lighter upper body is higher than my lower body just due to the weight imbalance. so they arent 'flat'. so if i keep going up in ILD, the closer i get to flat, but increase discomfort due to how firm

it's almost a math problem. the latex takes on X weight and sinks Y distance. well what happens when a given bodys weight distribution isn't somewhat consistent, meaning the difference in Y travel is a certain +/- away from one another. as body types change and weight distribution changes, and the +/- distance grows, you'll exceed a given tolerance the body can accept before it hurts. so large variances create too large of a variance in Y travel, and then you generate pain. so for certain body types you'll never actually be in 'tolerance flat' on latex without zoning if the weight variances are large

“44d/44d/28t (2") = reduced the travel, i think this is how i'm finding more about the thicker layers aren't always better. still woke up with back pain”

What is going on here? Still sinking in too much or not enough? If not enough, what happens if you try 44d/44d/28t (2") / 36D?

“44d/44d/36d 2"/(19d or 32d 1" from SOL) the thinking here is going with the one i knew was pretty good, just lacked some comfort, but again, still fearful of latex”

19ild is too soft at your size. Forget that. Something around 32ild might be appropriate if you are easily pushing through the 28T. However, if 44/44/36 felt “firm as heck” you are probably going to need more than 1”.


no matter the combo, the end effect is the same, butt sinks just slightly too far, bends back after rotating the hips a touch forward

i tried just laying on 44/44, and i was like WOW finally a layer combination that is heavy enough to prevent the butt sink. so i was like ok, so now i just need to do a little bit of comfort and i'll be all set, but giving up, i'm out of patience and out of free returns, and pocket is already hurting from all the return shipping

i've already spent a week on the crummiest mattress i could get my hands on while i wait on new layers of memory foam and finalize my 44/44 latex base. it's a $250 mattress with 6" coils and 2" memory foam, and i'm already improved compared to every latex combination ive tried thus far. it's not perfect by any means, but the pain caused by the latex is slowly subsiding, bending in the morning and through the day is finally almost gone

non-zoned latex just isnt for me i suppose
14 Sep 2022 09:23
  • Arizona Premium
  • Arizona Premium's Avatar
That coil is the Caliber Edge, not the Bolsa you were inquiring about. The 8" Bolsa is a little less firm, correct
14 Sep 2022 07:58
  • MattressToGo
  • MattressToGo's Avatar
John Merwin, CEO of Brooklyn Bedding, discussed the genesis of Brooklyn Bedding making their own innerspring units in a recent interview on The FAM. Many mattress factories are choosing to become as vertical as possible, pouring their own foam and making their own springs, much like it's commonly done in the rest of the world.
14 Sep 2022 05:03
  • alfie
  • alfie's Avatar
It seems like a fair number of the DIY companies have moved from L&P coils to BB Ascension coils, and I’m seeing mixed answers for both a) why that is and b) the impact of the change on pocket coil quality.

Has this change been made because of cost? Supply chain issues? Perception of quality?

I’ve seen a few comments about how poor quality the BB coils are (frequent complaints about them from purchasers of BB and Nest beds) but have also been told by certain retailers/suppliers that they switched to BB because they felt like the quality of L&P had diminished.

What’s the real story here?
13 Sep 2022 19:51
  • alfie
  • alfie's Avatar
Also your sister site is still showing that you carry the 6” coils .

Is that true or has that page just not been updated yet?
13 Sep 2022 18:15
  • Basilio
  • Basilio's Avatar
Hi Brooklyn Returnee,

Thanks, Basilio, for your very helopful rply. I've reached out to Berkeley Ergonomics and will see if I can get some more info on the longevity of their Navik with high BMI users. I'm now thinking that we might be happier with an all latex mattress maybe with a good topper. I plan to check out Birch Luxe Natural Mattress. Any insights into the Birch Luxe? It uses cashmere and wool as the comfort layer.

Glad I could help. I hope Berkeley can provide some answers for you. Keep in mind an all latex mattress can have a completely different general feel and responsiveness than the Berkley and McRoskey, and Garrison you tried, so I suggest you make another test trip to see if an all latex is something you like , it can be very comfortable and it can last you a good many years.

I took a look at the birch natural luxe, it’s an 8” layer of wrapped coils, a layer of latex of unspecified thickness/firmness, and several layers of wool and cashmere with an organic quilted top and a woven cotton cover. As thickness and firmness work together in terms of comfort-support balance I’d like to know the thickness of the latex or details of the wool and cashmere layers. That being said, cashmere and wool are becoming a more popular material in toppers and mattress comfort layers; it’s breathable, very soft and relatively durable. As the Birch is not overly expensive - it does look well made and has certified organic materials - it really just comes down to how you enjoy the ‘feel’ of the mattress. You’re narrowing the options down, and that’s great!

Let us know how the Birch felt for you and if you had a chance to try an all latex mattress.

~ Basilio
13 Sep 2022 13:11
  • NikkiTMU
  • NikkiTMU's Avatar
Hi Marcus.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum. :)

The lower the gauge number of the mattress coil, the thicker the coil. This means that the lower the gauge number is, the firmer and stiffer the mattress will feel, offering a harder surface for the mattress.

Since you're looking at innerspring models, you may still require a box spring unless you prefer the functionality of a different type of bed base (such as a platform bed).

Also, if I were choosing between a twin and full size mattress, is one of these more susceptible to sagging?

No. Sagging comes from wear over time or an inappropriate base (like a slatted base for your innerspring mattress). At your weight and height, you wouldn't need to worry about coil sagging. Are you planning to buy based on your in-person testing or are you also interested in options you may be able to purchase online?

13 Sep 2022 13:05
  • NikkiTMU
  • NikkiTMU's Avatar
Hi cymbalmonkey.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum. :)

As you're a hot sleeper, I'd recommend a latex hybrid. Latex sleeps cooler than all other foams, but allows for similar sinking and support to memory foam. Coils under the foam (hence the hybrid name) allow for the traditional bounce of an innerspring, but also allow for a bit of air flow to allow for cool sleeping that an all-foam configuration may not offer. There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range.

I'm not sure what you've read since you found the site but just in case you haven't read it yet ... the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

My typical issues are neck and back pain

There is info about the most common "symptoms" that people may experience on a mattress in post #2 here that may help you identify why you may be experiencing pain.

As for your budget, are you looking at a queen? Twin? Something else?

13 Sep 2022 12:43
  • Latex Mattress Factory.
  • Latex Mattress Factory.'s Avatar
Hi Lucy! DIYMattress.com is having some problems with the phones, but it should be fixed by the end of this week or early next week. To answer your question, though, we are not selling the micro coils right now, and I'm not sure of any other companies that sell them, I'm so sorry about that!
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