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Searched for: prana
05 Feb 2016 11:57
  • cmadparty
  • cmadparty's Avatar
Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for your thorough and thoughtful response. Apologies for not responding sooner but somehow I didn't get an email notification of your reply. Anyway a few thoughts...

First, I'm in the Boston area. Zip code is 02038. I'm going to see the Naturepedic EOS again tomorrow. Going to see if the pillowtop version of the mattress is what I'm looking for. I agree completely with you that it's a personal preference for feel. I toss around a lot and have a lot of pointy areas that hit the mattress so I do need a soft top, but I usually end up on my stomach so don't want to get that lower back pain from having mattress be too soft.

If I go with Naturepedic I'll need to decide if I want the standard EOS and a separate latex foam topper or the pillowtop version of the mattress which basically adds a second layer of latex to serve this purpose. For standalone latex foam toppers, is there anywhere I can go see a few of them or, if not, anywhere I can buy online and then return if I don't like? Are there a few that are the best ones in terms of quality and non-toxicity?

I did go around a while back to a few of the organic mattress stores in the area and I really wasn't impressed with the all-latex options they offered. They were more pricey even than naturepedic and sort of gave me the feeling of being stuck in them. They also felt a little hot, and I think the odor bothered me. With the twin mattress I have now, the odor was an issue for a few months but because it's only one layer it seems to have gone away.

I also looked at pranasleep at a standard furniture store, but those were out of my price range and I've read they don't hold up over time. And I've looked at the reverie bed online, but again price becomes an issue.

If there are any others you can recommend I look at, and possibly where to see them, that would be great. I do like the naturepedic (I'm actually a fan of the coils with the latex on top vs. all latex design), and I've had no issues with support or back pain, it's just the softness of the top that was getting me. Unfortunately I can't tolerate memory foam because of the odor, unless it's very old and has finished off gassing.

Anyway thanks again, this site provides a great service as these items are so hard to evaluate and so expensive.

Kind regards.
02 Feb 2016 17:08
  • smiles_cc
  • smiles_cc's Avatar
We just bought a Spindle mattress and have been very happy. Like many others we started looking at mattresses and visited Jordan's (in MA). That visit introduced us to latex mattresses and we left the store really liking the pranasleep vinyasa plush, but not liking the $5200 price (King). Determined that there must be more reasonable options I found this website and learned about Spindle Mattress in Acton, MA. My husband really liked that you could truly see what was in your mattress.

On MLK day 2016 we visited Spindle Factory. Their "showroom" has 4 beds: soft, medium, firm and extra firm. As side sleepers we wanted softness, but needed good support.. We were learning towards getting the medium and I mentioned to Kim that I had really liked the "plushness" of the Pranasleep. He shared that he slept on the firm mattress with a medium 3" latex topper and set up that option for us to try. We loved it - it was soft while giving us support. It cost $150 for the add'l layer of latex and $50 for a really comfy organic cotton cover for the topper.

Because we live in the area we arranged to pick it up a few days later when the order was ready. It came all shrink wrapped and did not take long to put together. We got a King and putting it together is a 2 person job. I was glad that we had been warned that we would initially think the cover was too small to fit the latex, but it really fit together. Because the mattress is heavy I suggest you put the bed together on the frame you plan to sleep on it as it would be very heavy to move. We have been sleeping with it for @ week and are very happy with our decision.
30 Jan 2016 13:29
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Saphireblue,

Do you have another recommendation for us that might compare to the Dunlopillo Retreat mattress?


While I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... I don't make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

There is more about the 3 most important parts of "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

There is also more information in post #9 here about the different ways that one mattress can "match" or "approximate" another one. Every layer and component in a mattress (including the cover and any quilting materials) will affect the feel and performance of every other layer and component and the mattress "as a whole" so unless you are able to find another mattress that uses exactly the same type of materials, components, cover, layer thicknesses, layer firmnesses, and overall design (which would be very unlikely) then there really isn't a way to match one mattress to another one in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) based on the specifications of the mattresses (even assuming that you can find out all the specifications you would need for both mattresses you are comparing).

Mattress manufacturers generally try to differentiate their mattress from the mattresses made by other manufacturers and don't normally try to "match" another mattress that is made by a different manufacturer so unless a manufacturer specifically says in their description of a mattress that one of their mattresses in the same general category is specifically designed to "match" or "approximate" another one in terms of firmness or "feel" and PPP and/or they are very familiar with both mattresses and can provide reliable guidance about how they compare based on the "averages" of a larger group of people that have compared them (different people may have very different opinions about how two mattresses compare) ... the only reliable way to know for certain how two mattresses would compare for you in terms of how they "feel" or in terms of firmness or PPP would be based on your own careful testing or actual sleeping experience on both of them.

They also had the Pranasleep mattresses, but my husband found them to be way to bouncy. He moves a lot in his sleep.


You can read more about Pranasleep in general and the previous versions (up to version 4) of Pranasleep mattresses in post #3 here and in post #2 here and in post #3 here and in posts #1 and #2 here and a forum search on Prana (you can just click this) will also bring up more information and feedback about them as well.

The good news is that they changed the design in version 5 and the top layers of polyfoam are now higher quality/density and are no longer what I would consider to be a weak link in the mattress in terms of durability. Having said that they are still in a significantly higher budget range than other similar mattresses and the top layers are still polyfoam so you would still be feeling and sleeping on polyfoam as much as latex but this could also be a "feel" that you prefer compared to sleeping more directly on latex . There is more about the new version 5 in post #19 here but I would certainly make some very careful "value" comparisons with other latex mattresses that use similar materials and are in a lower budget range before considering one of their mattresses to be the "best value" choice available to you.

Andy at Urban Mattress said that the Dunlopillo Mattress from Sherwood Bedding, Retreat Luxury Firm would have a lifespan of 10 years, which we are ok with. Do you think it is likely to fail before the 10th year?


While there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person ... if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn't close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here ) and you have confirmed that it meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer and the chances that you would have additional "bonus time" would be higher as well.

There is also more detailed information about the many variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress in post #4 here .

If a mattress uses lower quality/density materials than the minimum in the guidelines and there is a weak link in the mattress then it would be reasonable to expect that it would last you less than this ... and in some cases it could be significantly less. I would consider it to be "lucky" if it lasted you for 10 years.

Our current mattress is a 20 year old king size Sterns and Foster which just failed this year. Why did they stop making it? Ugh.


The industry has changed a lot in the last 20 years and all the major brands (such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta) tend to use lower quality materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay and I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely along with any mattress where you aren't able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here ).

I live in Northern Va.


You may have seen this already but just in case you haven't ... the better options or possibilities i'm aware of in the Washington, DC/Northern Virginia area (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets your criteria and quality/value guidelines I linked earlier in this reply) are listed in post #2 here .

Phoenix
30 Jan 2016 12:49
  • Saphireblue
  • Saphireblue's Avatar
In a past post, you recommended against the king size Dunlopillo Mattress from Sherwood Bedding, Retreat Luxury Firm due to some weak links in the polyfoam layering. I live in Northern Va. and visited the Urban Mattress store in Vienna. We love the Dunlopillo Mattress from Sherwood Bedding, Retreat Luxury Firm. They also had the Pranasleep mattresses, but my husband found them to be way to bouncy. He moves a lot in his sleep. Do you have another recommendation for us that might compare to the Dunlopillo Retreat mattress? Andy at Urban Mattress said that the Dunlopillo Mattress from Sherwood Bedding, Retreat Luxury Firm would have a lifespan of 10 years, which we are ok with. Do you think it is likely to fail before the 10th year? Our current mattress is a 20 year old king size Sterns and Foster which just failed this year. Why did they stop making it? Ugh.
30 Jan 2016 12:35
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi LukeMorris,

I've read your comments about the prior generation's polyfoam density being the weak link in this mattress. Given that they are now using 2.5#, do you think the components of this mattress will support my weight?


I would keep in mind that the density of polyfoam is the single biggest factor in the durability of polyfoam but it has very little to do with support because any density of polyfoam can be made in a wide range of firmness levels. 2.5 lb polyfoam is a durable material and would be suitable for your weight in terms of durability but the only way to know whether any mattress or combination of materials and componentswill support your body and keep your spine in good alignment will be based on your own careful testing and/or your own personal sleeping experience.

Should I be concerned that Prana is not sharing the ILDs of their latex?


With a local purchase knowing the ILD information for the various layers is mostly meaningless and will generally only add to confusion. Careful testing for "comfort" and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) based on what your body tells you is much more reliable than choosing a mattress based on complex combinations of specs that can take many years of experience to understand how they all interact together.

For some people that have a great deal of experience in the industry or who design mattresses knowing the ILD information of the layers in a mattress can be helpful or even essential for business or design reasons, the ILD of a material is only one of many variables that determines how soft or firm the materials or a mattress "as a whole" that uses it will feel ( see here ) and ILD numbers are not comparable between different materials or in many cases between different versions of the same material anyway (see post #6 here ).

For most people knowing or finding out unnecessary specs can be overwhelming and for those that do know a little bit about foam specs they can often tend to make choices based on specs alone or believe that they know more than they really do (for example making choices based on foam density or ILD alone when these are just two of many variables that can affect the feel and performance of a mattress). Too much information and too little information can both result in poor choices. In many cases mattress manufacturers don't provide the ILD of their various foam layers because they are well aware of the risk of providing too much information to a customer and understand that for most people it would be more misleading than helpful. While knowing the quality specs of a mattress that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress is an important part of making an informed choice ... knowing the "comfort specs" of a local mattress isn't nearly as important as listening to what your body tells you with careful and objective testing.

The mattress seems to be a match for me in terms of PPP, but at $4700 for a king, it definitely gets no points in the "value" category. If I'm getting a quality mattress that will last, I can stomach it, but are there other mattresses similar to the Super Vinyasa Firm that are a better value that you recommend? One thing I actually like about the Super Vinyasa is the top layer of polyfoam (provided it passes the durability test) absorbs some of the "springiness" of the Latex.


While I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... I don't make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

There is more about the 3 most important parts of "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

While there are certainly some cases where a more costly mattress that is similar to others in a lower budget range may be "worth it" for a particular person that isn't price sensitive and that has specific criteria, needs, or preferences that aren't available or that they aren't able to find in lower budget ranges and in some cases like this a mattress that is in a much higher budget range could still be a good "value" choice for some people ... in general I would need a compelling reason that clearly indicated there was "enough" of a difference in "real life" between the Vinyasa and other mattresses that may also be suitable in terms of comfort and PPP and would be just as or more durable to satisfy yourself that any higher cost was justifiable and that you weren't being "influenced" by marketing stories or the belief that higher prices mean a "better" mattress.

Urban Mattress has an Uban Organics latex mattress, but I can't find much information on it. Do you know anything about it?


They would be the best source of information about any of the materials and components in any of their mattresses. I believe that they are "all latex" mattresses with wool quilted cotton covers but the current description on their website doesn't specify the type of materials they are using in the comfort layers (it just says "natural materials") and only says it has a natural latex core (which doesn't specify the type of latex) so I would make sure that you find out the information here about any mattress you are considering before making any purchase.

If they are "all latex" mattresses then they would certainly be a very durable choice that was at least as durable if not more durable than the Vinyasa but I can't speak to whether it would be a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP.

Any other thoughts/advice?


If you've read the mattress shopping tutorial then you already have all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that you will need to make the best possible choice but I'd certainly be happy to answer any specific questions you may have along the way,

Just in case you haven't seen it yet ... the better options or possibilities I'm aware of in and around the Ft Worth/Dallas area (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines I linked earlier in this reply) are listed in post #4 here .

Phoenix
30 Jan 2016 07:59
  • LukeMorris
  • LukeMorris's Avatar
Hi Phoenix

I've got a 4-year old Rhapsody Breeze that isn't working for me anymore. It was okay for about the first year or so, but it's gotten so soft that I feel like I'm sleeping in the mattress. I'm 6'1", 260lbs muscular build with broad shoulders and hips. I typically sleep on my back and side, but occasionally wake up on my stomach. My guess is I am sinking through the comfort layers because I wake up with lower back pain, shoulder and neck pain every morning. I've decided I'm just not a fan of memory foam and the effort I have to go through every time I want to roll over.

So...time to stop torturing myself with this thing. I wandered into the Dallas, TX Urban Mattress store a couple of days ago. Overall I was impressed with their selection and the knowledgeability of the sales guy (Jake). My favorite mattress was the 5th generation Pranasleep Super Vinyasa Firm.

I reached out to Pranasleep for the specifications of the mattress, and received this response:

Our 5th generation latex mattresses are made using our patented blend of more than 50% natural to synthetic latex. The polyfoam in the quilt is a 2.5# density layer designed to help minimize body impressions.

The Super Vinyasa 5 is made to be more supportive, longer lasting, and more comfortable than other latex mattresses in the industry. It also feels the same consistently longer than mattresses such as your Rhapsody and others. We do not give out ILDs as it is proprietary information. I will tell you the mattress will typically feel slightly firmer in time rather than softer.


So, I'm hoping to get your insight into a few questions:
  • I've read your comments about the prior generation's polyfoam density being the weak link in this mattress. Given that they are now using 2.5#, do you think the components of this mattress will support my weight?
  • Should I be concerned that Prana is not sharing the ILDs of their latex?
  • The mattress seems to be a match for me in terms of PPP, but at $4700 for a king, it definitely gets no points in the "value" category. If I'm getting a quality mattress that will last, I can stomach it, but are there other mattresses similar to the Super Vinyasa Firm that are a better value that you recommend? One thing I actually like about the Super Vinyasa is the top layer of polyfoam (provided it passes the durability test) absorbs some of the "springiness" of the Latex.
  • Urban Mattress has an Uban Organics latex mattress, but I can't find much information on it. Do you know anything about it?
  • Any other thoughts/advice?

I've been a long-time lurker in this forum, and I really appreciate the information you provide. Thank you, Phoenix.

Luke
02 Jan 2016 11:30
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Stackybe,

Do you have any recommendations of another company or type of bed that may suit my needs better?


While I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... I don't make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists (based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you).

Assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the quality/durability guidelines here ... the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses are more of a preference and a budget choice than a "better/worse" choice (see this article ). There are hundreds and perhaps thousands of different mattresses in each category and there are very high quality and durable mattresses in each of the different categories so I would be cautious about excluding any type of mattress based on "theory" or assuming that one type of mattress or combination of materials will be better for you than another unless you have tried a broad range of different types of mattresses and confirmed that you tend to prefer them based on your own personal experience on a wide range of different mattresses.

The savvy rest I've tried various configurations and seem to prefer soft talalay on top with two layers of Dunlop underneath. The issue I'm running into is in order for me to be supported and in neutral alignment I'm feeling a bit too much pushback in the shoulder and more like I'm on top of the bed. When my shoulders feel good my hips are dipping a bit/not completely neutral. I'd like to feel like I sink in just a little in the shoulder and hips without compromising alignment.


Zoning systems can sometimes be useful and worth considering for people in situations such as yours that have difficulty finding a mattress with the right "balance" between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to "match" to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here and the additional posts it links to.

I'm in the Atlanta area


The better options or possibilities I'm aware of in and around the Atlanta area (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets your criteria and the quality/value guidelines I linked earlier in this reply) are listed in post #2 here .

I tried prana beds too which were comfortable but they use lots of polyfoam and weren't able to give me a lot of details about the bed.


You can read more about Pranasleep in general and the previous versions (up to version 4) of Pranasleep mattresses in post #3 here and in post #2 here and in post #3 here and in posts #1 and #2 here and a forum search on Prana (you can just click this) will also bring up more information and feedback about them as well.

The good news is that they changed the design in version 5 and the top layers of polyfoam are now higher quality/density and are no longer what I would consider to be a weak link in the mattress in terms of durability. Having said that they are still in a significantly higher budget range than other similar mattresses and the top layers are still polyfoam so you would still be feeling and sleeping on polyfoam as much as latex but this could also be a "feel" that you prefer compared to sleeping more directly on latex . There is more about the new version 5 in post #19 here but I would certainly make some very careful "value" comparisons with other latex mattresses that use similar materials and are in a lower budget range before considering one of their mattresses to be the "best value" choice available to you.

I was wanting to do latex this time BC I also have some chemical sensitivities and like the idea of having something as natural as possible with no off gassing.

I want nontoxic and supportive/comfortable.


I would keep in mind that all foam materials (including latex) have "some" offgassing and VOC's so it's really a question of knowing whether any harmful VOC's are at "safe" levels (which they would be with any type or blend of latex). The only reliable way to to assess the "safety" of different materials in more general terms is based on lab tests and the certifications they have for harmful substances and VOC's so that you have some assurance than the VOC's are below the testing limits for the certification (see post #2 here for more information about some of the more reliable "safety" certifications). If the materials in a mattress or the mattress itself has a reliable "safety" certification then for most people they would certainly be "safe enough".

While it may be more information than you are looking for ... there is a lot more information in post #2 here and the more detailed posts and information it links to about safe, natural, organic, "chemical free", and "green" mattresses and mattress materials that can help sort through some of the marketing information and terminology that you will encounter in the industry and can help you differentiate between them and answer "how safe is safe enough for me" that can help each person decide on the types of materials they are most comfortable having in their mattress or on the certifications that may be important to them. These types of issues are complex and are generally specific to each person and their individual sensitivities, circumstances, criteria, beliefs, and lifestyle choices.

I've talked to Hans at cozy pure and love the idea of them and how organic they are but they don't use talalay at all and are less customizable with the 6" core.
I've also been talking to Jodi at sleepez and the customer service there has been exceptional.


I would consider the choice between Talalay and Dunlop to be a preference choice rather than a better/worse choice regardless of which layers they are being used in a mattress. There is more about the differences between them in post #7 here .

As you probably know both SleepEZ and Cozy Pure are members of this site which means that I think very highly of both of them and I believe that they both compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency ... but I would always keep in mind that the only way to know for certain whether any mattress will be a good "match" for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal sleeping experience so the options you have after a purchase to "fine tune" a mattress either by rearranging or exchanging layers or adding additional layers or components to a mattress can be among the more important parts of the "value" of an online purchase. Both companies have good options available for "fine tuning" their mattresses although the methods they use are different.

Phoenix
02 Jan 2016 09:22
  • Stackybe
  • Stackybe's Avatar
Hi Phoenix,

I want to thank you for providing such a great site! It's been so informative for me. Mattress shopping is one of my least favorite things to do but at least now you've helped me become a more educated consumer!

With all my knowledge I'm still having a little trouble deciding so I thought maybe you could help steer me in the right direction.

I'm 5'5" and 125lbs. I've had some back issues and tore the labrum in my hip so have to have hip surgery soon. I want a mattress that will keep me in good alignment but also feels more cushy and relieves pressure from my shoulders and hips. I sleep mostly on my side but occas on my back.
I was wanting to do latex this time BC I also have some chemical sensitivities and like the idea of having something as natural as possible with no off gassing.

I'm in the Atlanta area and have only been able to try savvy rest for all latex. I tried prana beds too which were comfortable but they use lots of polyfoam and weren't able to give me a lot of details about the bed. The prana has a really high price tag and if I don't like it all I can do is exchange.
The savvy rest I've tried various configurations and seem to prefer soft talalay on top with two layers of Dunlop underneath. The issue I'm running into is in order for me to be supported and in neutral alignment I'm feeling a bit too much pushback in the shoulder and more like I'm on top of the bed. When my shoulders feel good my hips are dipping a bit/not completely neutral. I'd like to feel like I sink in just a little in the shoulder and hips without compromising alignment.

I've talked to Hans at cozy pure and love the idea of them and how organic they are but they don't use talalay at all and are less customizable with the 6" core.
I've also been talking to Jodi at sleepez and the customer service there has been exceptional.

Do you have any recommendations of another company or type of bed that may suit my needs better? I want nontoxic and supportive/comfortable.

Thanks in advance and for the great site!



Sent from my iPhone
15 Nov 2015 16:05
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi dogs_007,

I realize the pure echo is much cheaper than the other two and that mygreenmattress is a member of the site. Is there much of a difference quality-wise between the pure echo and the other two? Does hand tufting make much of a difference? Are there other innerspring mattresses I should be looking at too?


Not surprisingly (since he is so knowledgeable about mattresses and mattress materials in general) I would completely agree with all of Daniel's comments ... including his comments about pocket coils vs other types of linked coils in terms of what most people would find most comfortable. Wool is also a more resilient fiber than cotton and will tend to pack down less and maintain it's softness and comfort better than cotton batting over the course of time.

Just to add a few comments that would also be worthwhile considering ...

There is more information about the 3 most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or any exchange/return options that are available to you).

I would always keep in mind that the most important part of the "value" of a mattress purchase is how well you will sleep on it because no matter what the cost ... there is very little value in purchasing a mattress that you don't sleep well on.

Vi-Spring is certainly an exceptionally high quality hand built and tufted mattress with great materials and components that uses natural materials and innerspring/natural fiber mattresses would be more temperature regulating than any other type of mattress but as you probably know it's in a much more premium budget range than many other mattresses that also use natural materials. There is more about Vi Spring and other "ultra premium" mattresses in post #2 here and post #2 here and post #2 here may also be of interest as well but I would be very careful to differentiate how you feel "about" a Vi Spring and how you feel "on" a Vi Spring. There are certainly cases where a mattress in this budget range may be "worth it" for a particular person that isn't price sensitive and that has specific criteria that aren't available in lower budget ranges but this would be unusual and in general I would need a compelling reason that clearly indicated there was "enough" of a difference in "real life" compared to many other mattresses that may be just as suitable in terms of comfort and PPP, just as durable, and that are in much lower budget ranges to justify the higher cost.

While I can't speak to how any mattress will feel for someone else or whether it will be a good match in terms of firmness, "feel", or PPP ... all of the mattresses you mentioned use good quality materials and there are no obvious weak links in any of them that would compromise the durability or useful life of the mattress.

Does hand tufting make much of a difference?


Yes ... hand tufting can make a significant difference in how well a mattress maintains it's comfort, shape, and resilience and help prevent the shifting of materials over the course of time.

Are there other innerspring mattresses I should be looking at too?
My budget can afford the more expensive mattresses but if I can get something comparable for cheaper it would be preferable.


Outside of any local manufacturers that may be close to you that still make innerspring/natural fiber mattresses ... there are also some other innerspring/natural fiber options that may be worth considering in post #4 here .

As Daniel also mentioned ... there are many people who also do very well on a latex/innerspring hybrid (see post #13 here ) and some of the better innerspring/latex options I'm aware of (including a few component mattresses) are listed in post #2 here and the post it links to but you would need to check their websites or call them to see if any of them have a dealer close to you if you wish to test them in person before considering a purchase.

Phoenix
14 Nov 2015 18:53
  • sunlach
  • sunlach's Avatar
I've been researching latex mattresses for a few weeks, and have tried some locally (including Obasan, PranaSleep, and GreenSleep models). I also read much of the very helpful information on this site (Thanks, Phoenix!).

I have an idea of what firmnesses I liked in the models I tried, but I just can't justify the prices of these mattresses.

I started looking online, and I think I have narrowed my choices down to Flexus Natural Comfort (10"), SleepEZ Organic Latex Mattress (10") and SleepingOrganic The Leaf (10"). These were chosen because they all offered 100% Tallalay (rather than blended), amongst other reasons. I know all of these retailers/manufacturers are recommended here, and they all seem to have pluses and minuses. I was wondering if you have any guidance.

From what I can see, Flexus currently has the best price, and an excellent warranty. What I don't like is that they have only 2 layers, and so far, I have tended to like 3 layer construction. I think if I went with medium Dunlop as the base, it would be OK, though.

SleepingOrganic has the highest price and costs for exchange/return, but has a very generous deflection standard on the warranty (0.75"), which is a plus. The 3-layer construction is also a plus.

SleepEZ has a good price, and 3-layer construction. The one thing that concerns me is the warranty being not terribly generous with either the length and pro-rated coverage compared with the others on my list, or with the deflection amount (1.5") before the warranty kicks in. Other than that, I think they would be the clear winner. I do like that they have been in business for a long time.

Does anyone have any experience with these or any suggestions?

I have one other question. I was thinking of soft Tallalay for the top layer (due to the softness and spring), and medium/firm (split) Dunlop for the base layer. I'm not sure whether Dunlop or Tallalay (medium in both cases) would be better for the middle layer in a 3-layer construction. The bed is for 1 side sleeper and 1 side/back sleeper, and we are not large people. Does anyone have suggestions on this question?

Thanks!
20 Oct 2015 18:03
  • Zoftra
  • Zoftra's Avatar
Thank you very much! This website has been very helpful to me during this mattress quest. I have purchased the Dynasty mattress after a few rest-tests on it and a few other mattresses in the same store and other stores.

Unfortunately this mattress hunt started after arriving home from a very pain free vacation. I figured I would have a few days of back discomfort after arriving home because of prolonged, uncomfortable travel. However, my back pain did not subside after a week and a half and I realized it had to be the mattress. I decided to move to my old bed which alleviated my lower back pain but this caused my back to hurt the way it did before I stopped sleeping on that mattress. So I moved onto a 30 year old twin spring mattress in a spare room. My feet hang off but all the major pain is gone except for some achiness.

The current mattress that caused all this pain is a Simmons Beautyrest. Luckily I had purchased it used out of necessity with a bulk of very lightly used furniture from an acquaintance that had to move quickly. From what Ive read Im very glad I did not purchase it for retail price or I would be quite angry. Although you cant see a hump in the middle, it is obvious when rolling across it. My hips sink way down when Im on my side and all of my lumbar muscles were debilitatingly painful in the morning. This would improve slightly during the day but it did such a job on my back that the pain did not go away until switching mattresses. I have had back pain throughout my life which have been caused by strain (ie sitting, extended periods, various sports, not from medical back issues). Looking back at this it is very hard to discern pain from strain during the day vs pain from having an improper mattress or a mattress that has slowly stopped providing proper support (which is easy to blame on daytime activity or inactivity). I certainly should have been more aware of this but it wasnt as blatantly obvious as it was after returning from vacation.

Prior to this I had a Select Comfort mattress. I was comfortable on it for many years, it had certainly served its purpose but eventually the comfort layer pillowtop gave out. This hurt my midback plus the bed was rather hard to sleep on. I considered replacing the comfort layer but it seemed way too expensive at $700 for a foam top. The bed was originally quite expensive but other than cost and foam deflation no other issues came up. The air pump still works and the sides do not leak air and the bed is about 15 years old. After reading other reviews of this bed on the internet recently Id say I was lucky.

The Select Comfort purchase was prompted by serious recurrent pain and throwing out my neck on a waterbed. That was so long ago however, that it is hard to analyse other than there was no support and I felt like I was lying on the surface of a ball.

Back to my current mattress quest-
I was interested in a two sided mattress because this is what I slept on during my painfree vacation. It seemed pretty old school but It gave me a starting point. I did some research on the internet, read a few reviews, and stumbled across this site. I visited Xtreme Discount mattress. They were pretty helpful and showed me the specs that they had but foam densities were not available for the mattresses I tried. It is possible they could have gotten them if I asked specifically but there wasnt anything there that I really liked. City Mattress was also helpful, I tried some Pranasleep options too because after reading about latex I figured Id give it a try. It was nice but way out of price range there. They also gave me the same sort of specs as the other store but I did not press for foam densities at that point. They did say that noone makes two sided mattress anymore...which we know isnt true.

I found Jamestown Mattress because of this site. They were great! There was no sales pressure, all of the components of the mattresses were on display with densities, and every step up in mattress price was becuase of type of materials so it was easy to compare. I liked the all latex line and the Dynasty line which is their top tier coil/ polyfoam line. I decided not to spring for the extra cost of all latex at this point. The Dynasty kept my spine in alignment on my side and back, I did not have that sinking-down feeling, the polyfoam was of higher quality, it was 2 sided which I personally value, and the price was right.

Thanks again for for my Associates in Applied Mattress Science!
It's fascinating material! I recommend your site to everyone.

Zoftra
13 Oct 2015 20:05
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Nuclearmomb,

I am interested in latex cores, and am thinking pillow-top are the way to go. I live in 14534 zip area. You already recommended some good stores, but can you recommend some specific makes and models? I've looked at Restonics, Pranas are too expensive, and most of the other brands are Simmons, Sertas and Sealys, which you know you don't recommend,


The first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or if you can't test a mattress in person then your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

I also don't keep a record of the individual mattresses or their specs that the retailers and manufacturers in the hundreds of forum lists throughout the forum carry on their floor or have available online (it would be a bigger job than anyone could keep up with in a constantly changing market) but checking their websites and making some preliminary phone calls to the retailers/manufacturers that are on the lists is always a good idea before you decide on which retailers or manufacturers you wish to deal with anyway. This will tell you which of them carry mattresses that would meet your specific criteria, are transparent about the materials in their mattresses, and that carry the type of mattresses that you are interested in that are also in the budget range you are comfortable with. Once you have checked their websites and/or talked with the ones that interest you then you will be in a much better position to decide on the ones that you are most interested in visiting or considering based on the results of your preliminary research and conversations.

I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress relative to your weight that you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don't involve what you will "feel" on a mattress, and help with "how" to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress, manufacturer, or combination of materials is "best for you" regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or whether anyone else has the same criteria or circumstances or would make the same choice.

Phoenix
13 Oct 2015 19:29
  • Nuclearmomb
  • Nuclearmomb's Avatar
Hi, Phoenix. Thanks for the time you spent answering my question about the some mattresses over the last couple of days.
After thinking that this one particular mattress was the "answer", I came to the realization that I need something much softer and fluffier. I love the sinking-in or cloud-like feeling, but have some back pain, and need some good support (both my husband and I are around 130lbs). I am interested in latex cores, and am thinking pillow-top are the way to go. I live in 14534 zip area. You already recommended some good stores, but can you recommend some specific makes and models? I've looked at Restonics, Pranas are too expensive, and most of the other brands are Simmons, Sertas and Sealys, which you know you don't recommend,
05 Oct 2015 19:35
  • meffaman
  • meffaman's Avatar
We've been sleeping on the same S&F 2 sided mattress for 15 years now and have been wanting to replace it for several years, but have been hesitant primarily because we had to fold our current king sized mattress in half to get it to our 2nd floor bedroom (house built 1875) and didn't know what to do. We didn't want to go with memory foam or move down to a queen, so we continued looking on and off and always left unhappy thinking we'd never find a solution.

About 6-9 months ago we went to a large retailer (imax and ice cream) and laid down on everything. We loved the feel of the Prana latex they had, but at $6k it was about $4k more than we were willing to spend. We also had never heard of latex mattresses and basically dismissed them due to the high cost and lack of knowledge. This past weekend we went to a smaller family owned furniture store that we love and started looking again. We were considering an iMattress because it felt ok (just) and would bend enough to get it up our stairs, though per usual before buying I decided to do a little online searching and boy am I glad I did because I landed here! I learned more in a weekend reading here than I could ever have hoped for! Your site saved me from what I really think would have been an $1800 mistake.

Armed with great information and no longer frozen in fear of buying a blind item, we today ordered a latex mattress from Spindle in Acton, MA. All things considered Spindle just seemed to have the best value for the money when I compared them to other members. You'd think the story ends here but it gets better. Seeing other vendors offering 3, 4, or 5 layers but Spindle only listing a 3 layer I was a little disappointed, though living by the don't ask don't get philosophy I asked if 4 layers was an option. Without hesitation Neal said no problem, he'd have a custom cover made up to accommodate the extra layer! From what I read 3 layers would have probably been sufficient, but hey it's my money and if I want to spend more to get more then why shouldn't I be able to!

Needless to say we're looking forward to receiving our new mattress that has been a long time coming, and will post updates after we've slept on it for a little bit.
08 Aug 2015 12:28
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi psyclonejack,

I'm sorry to hear that you were led to believe that the mattress you were testing and purchased was different from the one you ended up receiving.

It's difficult to provide advice to someone about what they "should do" in situations like this because different people may have different criteria and different risk tolerances that could affect their decision but I can certainly make some comments that may be helpful.

1. As you know the 4th generation contained lower density polyfoam layers on top of the mattress that I would consider to be a weak link in the mattress in terms of durability and the useful life of the mattress regardless of how it may feel when it is new. Lower density and less durable foams have a much higher risk of softening and breaking down much more quickly than higher quality and more durable foams and this can lead to the premature loss of the comfort and/or support which which is the reason you purchased the mattress in the first place. Unfortunately foam softening and the loss of comfort/support isn't considered to be a manufacturing defect in a mattress (unless there are actual visible impressions that are deeper than the warranty exclusion which is very often not the case) so it isn't covered by the mattress warranty even though if you aren't sleeping "well enough" on the mattress that you may need to buy a new one much more quickly than you expected (see post #174 here for more about mattress warranties).

While there are many variables involved that can affect the durability and the useful life of a mattress outside of just foam density/durability (see post #4 here ) ... the density of polyfoam is the single biggest factor in durability and the risks of using lower quality polyfoam in the top layers of a mattress would be much higher in the version 4 than the version 5.

2. The version 5 that uses higher quality and more durable polyfoam (and that doesn't have a "weak link" in the mattress) may be more costly than the version 4 (if you are hoping to exchange one for the other) but both of them are in higher budget ranges relative to other mattresses that use similar materials although they may not "feel" the same in terms of "comfort" and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) which is also important. When you are considering a mattress in a budget range such as the Prana I would certainly want the risks of the loss of comfort/support to be very low and even with the version 5 where the risks are much lower I would suggest making some careful "value" comparisons with other latex mattresses that use the same or similar materials and are in lower budget ranges that are as "objective" as possible.

How well you sleep on a mattress (PPP) and how long you will sleep well (durability and the useful life of a mattress) are the two most important parts of "value" and while there are certainly some cases where a more costly mattress that is very similar to others in a lower budget range may be "worth it" for a particular person that isn't price sensitive and that has specific criteria, needs, or preferences that aren't available or that they aren't able to find in lower budget ranges and in some cases like this a mattress that is in a much higher budget range could still be a good "value" choice for some people ... in general I would need a compelling reason that clearly indicated there was "enough" of a difference in "real life" between the Prana and other mattresses that may also be suitable in terms of comfort and PPP and would be just as or more durable to satisfy yourself that any higher cost for the version 5 was justifiable and that you weren't being "influenced" by marketing stories or the belief that higher prices mean a "better" mattress.

3. If you were specifically told in writing that the mattress you were testing and purchasing was a version 5 with the higher quality/density polyfoam then I certainly wouldn't be happy with being "influenced" to purchase a mattress that was different from what I was led to believe I was purchasing and this along with any additional cost would also factor into whether I decided to exchange it for the version 5 or return it for a refund as well.

Overall ... if it was me I wouldn't be comfortable with the longer term risks involved with version 4 of their mattresses and at a minimum would want a version 5 (hopefully at the same price) but of course you may have a different "risk tolerance"than I do so this is only what I would do.

Phoenix
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