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Searched for: Tuft Needle
15 Feb 2018 20:48
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Rosenthal311.

but have not been able to find much about the nest Alexander Hybrid Luxury Contour as it appears to be a newer model? Any weak links in this? I have struggled to find a good mattress for years. Thinking this may be a good option because I like some push back from the coils but softness of memory foam. … Any thoughts on this new Nest?


I am sure that given your experience with the Vi-Spring mattress (that you were mentioning in your previous post) you have now a few more data points as to what direction you wish to go with your new mattress, but I would do an internal checkup to make sure that anything you are considering does not come from a tendency to go with the pendulum swing from “too firm” to “too soft” and to test and have a detailed conversation with a trusted manufacturer or retailer that has your best interests at heart and sells their products based on suitability rather than profitability.

As you’re aware Nest is one of our Trusted Members here which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency. You are correct that Nest’s Alexander Luxury Contour is a new 2017 addition to Nest’s lines. This mattress was designed to be quite plush and comes in a single firmness choice. From top to bottom the layers and specs are:
Comfort Layers:
  • 1.5” x 2.5 lb. 2.5 lb. Copper Phase Change Gel Memory Foam (even though it is "an inch or so" this would be a little on the lower end on the Memory Foam durability scale that I usually recommend for the uppermost layer of the product which tends to undergo the most mechanical stress.
  • 2” x 3 lb. Soft Energex Foam ( Energex is a high-quality polyfoam, one of the newer generation of what I term “ high-performance polyfoams ” and it is formulated to have different and more desirable properties than more conventional polyfoam and can approximate some of the more desirable properties of latex or memory foam (depending on the specific formulation). With their higher densities, they are all durable products.
  • 1” x 4 lb. Visco Soft Memory Foam (this falls within the durability guidelines for your weight range)
Support layers
  • 3” x 1300 Micro Coil System
  • 4” x High-Density Foam Edge Support Core (Usually 1.5 lb and a higher a IFD is good option for your weight range)

…because I like some push back from the coils but softness of memory foam. I sleep hot and am a side sleep - about 160 pounds.


I'm not sure what you've read since you found the site but just in case you haven't read it yet ... the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.
Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

As far as temperature goes, While it's not possible to quantify the sleeping temperature of a mattress for any particular person with any real accuracy because there are so many variables involved including the type of mattress protector and the sheets and bedding that you use (which in many cases can have just as significant an effect on temperature as the type of foam in a mattress) and on where you are in the "oven to iceberg" range and because there is no standardized testing for temperature regulation with different combinations of materials ... there is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system.

Side sleepers generally need a bit more pressure point relief on the surface to accommodate the wider dimensional variances between the shoulders and the hips and the waist. There’s a bit more about different sleeping positions here .
in post #2 here . A good starting point for a good comfort layer for a side sleeper is 3" and then depending on weight, body shape, preferences, and the firmness of the support layers, to go up or down from there.

Good luck with your research and I'm looking forward to your feedback and any questions you may have along the way.

Phoenix
14 Feb 2018 12:33
  • MattressToGo
  • MattressToGo's Avatar
Both Serene and Aerus have been discussed previously here on the forum, and to make it easier, I just copied over some information about each that you may find helpful:

Serene foam is one of the “newer’ generation of high-performance polyfoams, which are of a higher density and good at pressure point relief, but do not have any of the viscous properties (it is not a memory foam). It is also not a latex foam. Carpenter introduced Serene in 2015 and re-launched it in 2016. It is generally a higher density (2.5 lbs as an example) and it is CertiPUR-US certified. This generally would be a good quality and durable plush material. It is not technically a high-resilience foam, as that would require a 2.5 density or above, along with a compression modulus of 2.4 or above.

High performance polyfoams such as this are becoming a bit more popular, some to offer the conformation and point elasticity found in memory foam, but to be more open-cell and breathable, faster in recovery, and not so temperature dependent. Others are designed to be closer to latex in their characteristics. And then some are simply designed to be more durable versions of low-density polyfoams.

These foams are usually located in the uppermost layers of a mattress to take advantage of their point elasticity, and are sometimes offered as a topper. The overall feel of any mattress is of course dependent upon all of the layers within a mattress, and the “deeper down” these foams are placed within a mattress (even beneath a thicker covering), the less noticeable their softness will be.

The Aerus Plus memory foam at 5 lb would be a good quality memory foam, but memory foam itself is not a “supportive” material, but instead relies upon the firmer and more resilient foam layers and components placed beneath it to provide deep support and assist with maintaining a more neutral alignment.


Both these foams would generally be quite plush (in lower IFD ranges). The more important thing to know would be the density, and in this case both would be considered to be better quality materials.

Being a softer material you will tend to "feel through" to the deeper layers, so this doesn't necessarily mean that the material is a lower quality. This is more of a reflection upon the plushness and compression modulus of the foam.
08 Feb 2018 08:17
  • wvk
  • wvk's Avatar
I was so startled to get email that there was a new post to this thread I started 2 years ago that I thought I’d update my story….

The replacement mattress from Serta did not stand the test of time, even with a topper. We decided to take the loss and bought a new mattress from Costco (a Sealy Charter Pointe), moving up to king size, knowing that they’d take it back if we didn’t like it. Sure enough, after a few months there was a noticeable hill and two valleys so we got our money back and decided to stay away from inner-spring mattresses.

We were impressed with the reviews of Novaform from Costco but were reluctant to buy anything without first being able to try it. Since we live in northern Arizona we figured it would behoove us to take a drive down to Phoenix, which seems to have become a bit of a mattress mecca. We sampled the memory foam at Amerisleep and Tuft & Needle, which were quite comfy, but when we got to SleepEZ, we knew we’d found what we were after. Their layer-it-yourself latex mattress immediately impressed us, and we’ve been sleeping on it for 8 months now in total comfort and no backaches. Happy campers, happy sleepers.
03 Feb 2018 18:16
  • Kpaciga
  • Kpaciga's Avatar
Good evening, we are moving our son into a full size bed in the next month or so and have dug deep into the mattress world but still can't seem to find what is going to be best (maybe we have and just don't know it). We are looking for something that our son can grow with. Full size, non toxic, durable, under $500 if at all possible. We are open to latex, foam, etc but really can't figure out which will best. I would appreciate any suggestions! We have looked at Casper, tuft and needle and a few others.
31 Jan 2018 08:21
  • MattressToGo
  • MattressToGo's Avatar
Tuft and Needle has some recommendations for appropriate foundations on the FAQ page here . Scroll down to "What frame and foundations does...". You can use a metal grid network, like one of the metal platform beds they linked to on that page.
31 Jan 2018 05:05
  • vettehigh
  • vettehigh's Avatar
I'm ordering the Tuft & Needle Mattress and I just need a high grade steel wire foundation, any opinion? Thank you
30 Jan 2018 07:28
  • beddyboop
  • beddyboop's Avatar
In my experience of several months with both a Plushbeds latex mattress and a Tuft & Needle mattress, I experience considerable static electricity (as evidenced not by shock but by flashes of light), any time of year, and the problem does NOT go away. I don't think it's healthy and I've been meaning to buy a grounding pad to use as a mattress cover.
25 Jan 2018 19:09
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Bamm98,

I am glad to hear that you are one step closer to fine tune and find the best combination that works for you, and I agree that it is best to take some time with each change and give enough time for the body to adjust.

I am to the point now, I think the wife and I can not sleep directly on latex. I think it is the "pushback" feeling which is making it uncomfortable. I still think I will probably need to try the Aerus Plus 5lb MF topper. Not sure to order the 2 inch or 3 inch. This would be placed over the 28 / combi-coil set up.


Some people do not like the more resilient and “pushback” feel of latex and prefer the less supportive feel of memory foam this is one of those variables that are completely dependent on your preferences. There’s nothing wrong with not liking either latex as regardless of the level of quality of componentry, if you don’t like the feel of a particular material, it doesn’t matter how good that material might be.

The Aerus Plus 5lb MF topper is certainly a good quality and more durable choice. Adding 2” memory foam on top will give just a bit change in the comfort and add some surface plushness while 3” of MF will give a little more moderate change in the surface comfort because the Memory foam will be more point elastic and not so resilient as latex and you will tend to go more through to the layers below than you would with a latex layer. Keep in mind that with the Memory Foam (which does not have the resilience of latex) quite often to achieve a softer surface modification you would need a little bit more material then you would need from a corresponding layer of latex to achieve the same effect in plushness (e.g. if 2” of latex are needed to achieve a moderate softness then to achieve the same moderate softness you would need about 3” of MF)

If I were to go 2 inch MF, I think I am leaning towards getting a good quality 1 inch polyfoam to make up the difference in height. I would need to decide whether to place the polyfoam under the MF or under the 28. I think I would need a medium density polyfoam if placed under the MF and a higher density if placed under the 28.


I don’t know if you came across this reading on our site but It is good to recall that for polyfoam density and firmness are not directly related while density and durability are strongly related and whether you place the polyfoam layer in the upper part of the bed or in the lower part of the bed it would be best to choose a high density (not “medium density”) good quality polyfoam. You can have a soft layer of high density polyurethane such as the newer generation of the high performance polyfoam. The Energex is a high quality polyfoam, one of the newer generation of what I term high performance” polyfoams
The closer the polyfoam layer will be placed towards the upper part of the mattress the more will be influencing the comfort and lend it’s qualities to the layer above.

The configuration 2” MF + 1” polyfoam + 3” (28 ILD) with the polyfoam layer between the MF and latex will of course will keep you furthest away from the feeling of latex that you are not enjoying. It would make sense in this configuration to get a softer high density 3lb polyfoam such as Energex (or one of the new generations of high performance polyfoams out on the market)

Going with the 2” MF + 3” (28 ILD) + 1” polyfoam, and placing the polyfoam under the latex of course it will have less of an impact on comfort and with the latex just under the MF will allow for its qualities to blead more into the MF layer above. Based on your description and desire to keep away from the latex and the more resilient feeling of it then probably the best configuration would be to place the poly in-between the MF and Latex. Regardless if the polyfoam goes under or beneath the latex you still need to have a good quality higher density polyfoam layer.

I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding ...

Phoenix
31 Dec 2017 11:25
  • Csj0952
  • Csj0952's Avatar
So I didn't have much of a choice. Jamestown mattress has a 60 day comfort guarantee where they will rebuild the bed replacing firmer foams with softer foams in the comfort layer. I asked them to make the bed more plush which they did. I've been on the new bed for a week and still I'm struggling to have my hips sink in enough. If I put a couple towels under my stomach it gets alittle better but I still wake up with back discomfort and have to change throughout the night to sleeping on my back or side where then I wake up with discomfort in other areas.

What would be your next recommendation at this point?
1) Should I try a mattress topper?
2) Should I chalk this bed up as a loss and try another brand if so would you recommend something to try online (that's not latex)? I tried sleep ez and i couldn't find a configuration that made my back happy. I was formerly on a sealy mattress dunlop latex beachside and slept well on it but I was trying to steer away from them due to inferior foams they use.
3) try an online foam mattress like casper or tuft and needle with a good return policy?

I'm really disappointed in myself at this point because I can't seem to figure out how to test a bed effectively in store and have a good night's sleep. I wish there was a way to test more effectively in the show room. What feels good to me in the showroom ends up being a nightmare the next morning. It's really noticeable how lack of a good night's sleep can affect your entire day so I'm willing to keep putting financials, time and effort into ensuring I somehow figure this out.


Thanks for all your help.


Chris
155lbs athletic
5'6
22 Dec 2017 10:44
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi PrincessAndThePocketCoil,

Serene foam is one of the “newer’ generation of high-performance polyfoams, which are of a higher density and good at pressure point relief, but do not have any of the viscous properties (it is not a memory foam). It is also not a latex foam. Carpenter introduced Serene in 2015 and re-launched it in 2016. It is generally a higher density (2.5 lbs as an example) and it is CertiPUR-US certified. This generally would be a good quality and durable plush material. It is not technically a high-resilience foam, as that would require a 2.5 density or above, along with a compression modulus of 2.4 or above.

High performance polyfoams such as this are becoming a bit more popular, some to offer the conformation and point elasticity found in memory foam, but to be more open-cell and breathable, faster in recovery, and not so temperature dependent. Others are designed to be closer to latex in their characteristics. And then some are simply designed to be more durable versions of low-density polyfoams.

These foams are usually located in the uppermost layers of a mattress to take advantage of their point elasticity, and are sometimes offered as a topper. The overall feel of any mattress is of course dependent upon all of the layers within a mattress, and the “deeper down” these foams are placed within a mattress (even beneath a thicker covering), the less noticeable their softness will be.

My original goal was to DIY a latex/pocket coil mattress. I've been looking into memory foam and memory foam alternatives as a way to fine tune the feel. Overall I like the bounce and buoyancy of pocket coils and talalay latex but based on my in person testing my ideal mattress would include a small amount of other layers to slightly deaden the bounciness and provide a small amount of slower recovery/conforming ability. So right now my tentative plan is to incorporate pocket coils, talalay latex, and either some 4-5lb memory foam or some polyfoam into a 15inch mattress cover. I expect to do some fine tuning as I go and experimentation with ordering of layers.


High performance polyfoam or memory foam certainly can provide some “tempering” of the buoyancy of latex. If you like the resiliency and responsiveness of latex, but just don’t want it to feel “too bouncy”, you can locate the memory or polyfoam beneath the latex upper layer. If you like the durability that latex provides and the good conforming support, but think that it’s too “lively”, you can place the latex beneath an upper layer of memory or polyfoam. The nice thing with a component DIY system is that you can rearrange layers and experiment at home. :)

Phoenix
21 Dec 2017 12:30
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi MeDave,

There are more manufacturers looking to replace lower density polyfoams in their quilt panels with some of these newer generation “ high performance polyfoams ”. Some of these foams are also designed to mimic the feel of memory foam, albeit with faster response rates and less temperature sensitivity. And some of them are made more resilient and have comforts similar to latex. But of course, the overall feel of the mattress is dependent upon all of the materials within that particular mattress. And how “buoyant” or “dead’ of a surface comfort feel you desire would be a matter of personal preference.

While these higher density polyfoams do provide some unique levels of comfort, one of the best benefits is the extra longevity they can provide versus some of the less dense and lower quality polyfoam and memory foam materials that they sometimes replace.

Phoenix
20 Dec 2017 12:44
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi aboutabed10,

I'm still a little puzzled about finding a truly soft bed (well, soft to me, as you pointed out) that isn't going to break down more quickly than a firm one to be honest.. I'd much rather have bought a bed from the guy who has actually made them with his own hands for 30+ years. It seems like companies who put their own names on beds (his shop, Steinhafels) will not make super cushy beds because they don't want to be associated with the breakdowns in the foams - but I am just guessing on that.


It's true that you will tend to find better construction and higher quality foams in many of the smaller licensees and mattress manufacturers across the country, and it’s also true that many of them will eschew the ultra-ultra-plush materials (even latex) because of the potential for more softening over time, or just their own experience or mattress-building philosophy.

I seriously like the feeling of basically being on top of a massive bag of cotton balls... which exists in the big names (all of which have complaints as they notoriously break down and have body impressions - some within the first year!).


Unfortunately, there are quite a few products manufactured in the ultra-ultra-plush category that you prefer that use very low density, low ILD foams that do not hold shape very well.

You're right that their core support coils should reverse the lordotic posture when laying (Tim said this too). I am doing everything wrong from an orthopedic perspective when I sleep (turning the neck when sleeping on my stomach, letting my lower back arch deeper down in the mattress) but oddly enough, that's what is comfortable - until the beds start to really sink down after 2-3 years. Then, it's very very uncomfortable.


Everyone is different. The good news is that you are familiar with what works best for you and your particular sleeping style and comfort preference. Another option for people in your situation, which I touched on in my previous reply, would be to select a quality base mattress and then procure an ultra plush topper using quality material (such as described in the topper link I provided, for an example a 3” 15-19 ILD Talalay latex), and then you would have the option of replacing that “down the road” instead of the entire mattress, should it prove to not be plush enough for you over the course of use.

Down comforters have stitching at every box, so this breathes - duvet covers stop all breathing - which is not good for me. Nobody else has this problem that I've ever heard of. I must sound like the princess & the pea on steroids.


Generally, the fabric itself with be quite breathable that is used with a down comforter, and the stitching is used to create baffles to keep the down from becoming uneven within the comforter. Using a duvet with a cover I’m guessing didn’t allow for the amount of airflow that works best for you.

I checked out the link about the better quality plush polyfoams, and that is what tuft & needle is using now. They are # 1 on Consumer Reports too... and have such a low return rate.


There’s more about the material in the T&N mattress in the simplified choice thread here . The 3” of 2.8 lb high performance polyfoam on top of the 7” 1.8 lb polyfoam core would be better quality materials for most, but the overall thickness and plushness of that upper comfort may may not be enough for the ultra-ultra-soft comfort that you desire. Sweet Dreams (thanks Sweet Dreams!) listed a store that “shows” these mattresses near you, so you may wish to test one out in person (which I still think is a good strategy for you based upon your very specific comfort desires). Sweet Dreams lives somewhat in your area, and while not looking for the same type of mattress as you are, has probably visited every mattress store within a 100 mile radius of your home :lol: (just kidding, but that’s probably a more accurate statement than you might think)!

As for Consumer Reports, you can also see my comments about their mattress ratings and recommendations in post #2 here and in this topic . While they may be a good source of information about more "objective" purchases, as you can see I would consider them to be an unreliable source of information or guidance about purchasing a mattress and their "ratings" are somewhat nonsensical and meaningless. My thoughts are also shared by most of the more knowledgeable people in the industry (see post #5 here for an example).

And true return rates are rarely, if ever, made public. It was interesting in the IPO for Eve mattress they listed their return rate at 15% for FY 2016, and they are targeting less than 15% moving forward. Most with whom I speak estimate returns in the 10% - 25% range for online mattress sales. Obviously this is a very large estimation range, and results will vary by company, and the amount of returns for comfort (versus warranty issues) isn’t necessarily a reflection upon the quality or appropriateness of any one product for any particular individual.

Is anyone else using higher quality plush materials?


Yes, many boxed bed manufacturers are turning to higher-density plush polyfoams, along with latex.

I actually heard latex breaks down faster than it is being described here... not sure if that person was accurate though (someone in a big brand store).


This comes down to a simple case of, “I’ll trust what I know versus what someone else thinks.” B) Comments like this tend to be common from salespeople in big-box stores, many of whom are not very well educated about mattress technology and material. Latex is generally the most durable of all foam materials. While softer foam materials, regardless of type, will tend to be less durable than their firmer counterparts, latex will still be one of the best choices for an ultra plush foam material. There’s more information about the many factors that impact foam durability here , and more about the durability of latex here .

Thanks for making this site and all the work you put in here. It's quite a lot you've done here.


Thank you for the kind words.

Yet another problem with stores that sell beautyrests and those brands (vs quality sleep shop) is those stores have beds up to 2 years old on the floor (American Mattress, Mattress Firm, and some dept stores) - but Quality Sleep Shop beds are all pretty new on the floor. Buying a bed that's been on the floor for 2 years is tricky because it won't feel like this in the house for a while. You're only taking a guess at what you're buying. I can't believe the stores let them sit around that long. In some stores, you can even tell the difference between the center and the two sides where people sleep.


Some stores do let their floor models sit out for quite some time. I’ll always advise that what you test on the floor will generally feel softer than what you receive, and it is always a good idea to look at the production date, just to make sure the model is an accurate representation of the item that would be delivered to you (making sure there have bene no running changes in design).

Steinhafels was going ok the first day, but I came back the 2nd day to confirm what I wanted and the salesperson was literally yelling at me "You're over-complicating this! Just make up your mind! You like this one - you're sleeping on it the most - just take this one! Don't analyze it - buy what is comfortable!" - he went off like this out of the blue. I asked questions about which beds were the least likely to have imprints and what foams were more durable, but that's about it. I was just stunned, like - he's the exact reason people are buying beds online. Then 2 seconds later he said his shift was over and he murmured something in the background about "having to split it now" (the commission) if I bought it from the second guy. Unreal. Like a parody sketch of a mattress salesman.


I’m sorry you had an unpleasant shopping experience. While I wasn’t there to experience the tenor of the conversation, there’s nothing wrong with requesting information about the materials used within the mattress (as I linked to in my earlier reply to you).

Phoenix
20 Dec 2017 06:40
  • Sweet Dreams
  • Sweet Dreams's Avatar
aboutabed10 - I have no personal experience with Tuft & Needle nor am I recommending them, but since you expressed some interest and are apparently in the Chicagoland area I thought you might like to know that they have a "partner location" in Chicago. My understanding is that they don't actually sell the mattresses there but are a design/furniture store which uses T&N mattresses for display purposes. You can see their contact details given here , and a quick search on their address identifies the location as " Interior Define ". I'd suggest contacting them to confirm whether they have model(s) of interest to you on display. Hope this helps in your search!
20 Dec 2017 01:54
  • aboutabed10
  • aboutabed10's Avatar
Thanks Phoenix. I read a bunch of those threads - like your "read this first" thread. It was through somewhere in that network of links that I ended up finding Quality Sleep Shop since you had recommended to try to shop locally / avoid the SSB types. I'm still a little puzzled about finding a truly soft bed (well, soft to me, as you pointed out) that isn't going to break down more quickly than a firm one to be honest.. I'd much rather have bought a bed from the guy who has actually made them with his own hands for 30+ years. It seems like companies who put their own names on beds (his shop, Steinhafels) will not make super cushy beds because they don't want to be associated with the breakdowns in the foams - but I am just guessing on that. I seriously like the feeling of basically being on top of a massive bag of cotton balls... which exists in the big names (all of which have complaints as they notoriously break down and have body impressions - some within the first year!).

You're right that their core support coils should reverse the lordotic posture when laying (Tim said this too). I am doing everything wrong from an orthopedic perspective when I sleep (turning the neck when sleeping on my stomach, letting my lower back arch deeper down in the mattress) but oddly enough, that's what is comfortable - until the beds start to really sink down after 2-3 years. Then, it's very very uncomfortable. I've had to sleep on my back after a surgery and thought I was going to go crazy (and it was 2 weeks - I ended up on my stomach in the middle of the night every time). I also sleep with a body pillow or heavy blanket so I'm not totally on my stomach & that changes things a bit. I've done this since I was a kid too. It's weird how we develop these habits & then they basically govern the mattress we want forever (the hybrids, foams, and tempurpedics make me feel awkward too - aside from being warm). I know they use cooling technologies and vary quite a bit, but after I spent a crazy amount on a "fine Italian linen" duvet cover that is light as a feather - only to sweat to death night after night, I realized I just sleep too hot. Down comforters have stitching at every box, so this breathes - duvet covers stop all breathing - which is not good for me. Nobody else has this problem that I've ever heard of. I must sound like the princess & the pea on steroids.

I checked out the link about the better quality plush polyfoams, and that is what tuft & needle is using now. They are # 1 on Consumer Reports too... and have such a low return rate. I am still kind of on the fence with them because people find them to be a bit too firm, and I haven't really liked foam beds in general. It's too bad they won't put their bed in a retail store like Casper did with West Elm (or maybe I am unaware?) . Is anyone else using higher quality plush materials? I actually heard latex breaks down faster than it is being described here... not sure if that person was accurate though (someone in a big brand store).

Thanks for making this site and all the work you put in here. It's quite a lot you've done here. Yet another problem with stores that sell beautyrests and those brands (vs quality sleep shop) is those stores have beds up to 2 years old on the floor (American Mattress, Mattress Firm, and some dept stores) - but Quality Sleep Shop beds are all pretty new on the floor. Buying a bed that's been on the floor for 2 years is tricky because it won't feel like this in the house for a while. You're only taking a guess at what you're buying. I can't believe the stores let them sit around that long. In some stores, you can even tell the difference between the center and the two sides where people sleep.

Steinhafels was going ok the first day, but I came back the 2nd day to confirm what I wanted and the salesperson was literally yelling at me "You're over-complicating this! Just make up your mind! You like this one - you're sleeping on it the most - just take this one! Don't analyze it - buy what is comfortable!" - he went off like this out of the blue. I asked questions about which beds were the least likely to have imprints and what foams were more durable, but that's about it. I was just stunned, like - he's the exact reason people are buying beds online. Then 2 seconds later he said his shift was over and he murmured something in the background about "having to split it now" (the commission) if I bought it from the second guy. Unreal. Like a parody sketch of a mattress salesman.
19 Dec 2017 12:34
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi aboutabed10,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :)

Background on me: I really like soft beds. If I go to the big names - I'd always end up on a plush bed. I ended up with a bed made by a hotel that was problematic in many ways (after 2 months) so I found this forum in my research. The same hotel sold me a bed 5 years ago that I loved, but it started sinking in around year 3, and then I bought another bed from them because I loved that bed too much to care it would go defective at year 3 (but this one went defective at month 2!) I am a glutton for punishment, I guess.


Unfortunately, you were probably purchasing something using lower density polyfoams, which would be common with mattresses sold by or produced for the hospitality industry.

Anyway, The Quality Sleep Shop has a good variety of beds, but I'd say they are all Medium to Firm. The Green beds were also pretty comfortable, but in that same medium - firm range.


Plushness perception is very subjective, and just as you may consider the beds at a particular business or manufacturer not “plush enough”, there are others who may consider the same models “too plush”. "Softness" has different meanings to different people and there are different "species" of softness (for lack of a better description). Post #4 here talks a little more about this. Different people will be more or less sensitive to either the "feel" of softness, the pressure relief softness, the support softness, or the "overall" softness of a mattress and each of these may be talking about very different things when they talk about the softness of a mattress.

There are also no "standard" definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like "medium" for someone else or even "soft" for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they "rate" a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

The only reliable way to know whether a mattress will be "firm enough" or "soft enough" for you will be based on your own careful testing or your own personal experience, and that’s why it was excellent that you were able to test out these products in person to see how they align with your personal preferences.

The owner was actually the one who was on the floor when I was there, and he makes the beds. So, he was probably the best person I could ever talk to about this stuff - and he knew about other stores as well. He explained that if they went anymore plush, he'd have break-down problems, and he is more concerned with customer satisfaction and longevity & does not want to risk it with some of the plush foams that are difficult to prevent from breaking in too much.


As you may be aware, I think highly of Tim at Quality Sleep Shop (they are a site member here) and the advice he provides. I am happy that he was able to explain to you the reasons for their designs and what they are comfortable producing, as opposed to trying to sell you on a particular product. Having the heart of a teacher is one of the things that tend to set apart better retailers and our site manufacturing members.

The other thing about their beds is that they put more coils in the middle - horizontally where your body's core is basically. So, this area is more supported. Most people do not notice this, and a lot of people like it because of the support. I remember the big names doing this 10+ years ago, and I had to go to several stores to find beds without it. I can't get comfortable on a bed that has this kind of coil arrangement. I am a stomach sleeper, so it feels like it's pushing on me and arching my lower back. When I was on my back - it actually was more comfortable than normal beds because it fills in the lumbar area subtly.


This is another good example of the individual variability in mattress comfort preference. Prone sleepers usually respond better to bother firmer deep support as well as firmer upper comfort layers, as to not accentuate the forward lordotic curvature of the lower thoracic and lumbar region. But your preference seems to be quite the opposite of that.

I don't think a bed exists that is going to be soft enough for me to like - but not ultimately break down in the middle where I sleep. The mechanics of the foams seem to make this an impossibility, regardless of who is making the bed. It seems like I either have to compromise and sleep on something more firm - or I have to just accept buying a new bed every 2-3 years. Is that nuts?


Your opinion isn’t nuts ;) , but sampling just a few mattresses and then deciding that there isn’t something available out of the tens of thousands of different models and styles in the industry that would be soft and durable enough for you would be an inaccurate assumption. There are increasing numbers of mattresses using higher density plush polyfoams in the upper layers, as well as latex, which would generally be your most durable plush material.

The crazy thing is that a $40 egg crate topper from Bed Bath & Beyond lasted a year with not a single indentation anywhere...so what is wrong with the big named bed companies exactly?


While your topper may not be showing an indentation, being a lower density polyfoam (which it most likely is) it certainly will have lost resiliency and support factor in the area where it is used.

And as for the “big named bed companies", the major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (along with the major retailers that focus on them as well) regardless of how they may feel in a showroom along with any mattress where you aren't able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here ).

How on earth is Bed Bath & Beyond selling more reliable foam?


I don’t know that they are (of course they certainly may be offering a polyfoam using a higher density), but I also don’t know that your assessment of the durability of the topper would be completely accurate as well. Assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new so I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

One alternative I thought of was to get a bed that is medium/firm and just put that egg crate topper on it. It's comfortable... just seems a bit crazy that I can't simply find a bed.


While I generally don’t recommend seeking a topper together with a new mattress (as it further complicates the buying process, introducing extra variables), some people to prefer this, with Talalay latex being a very popular choice for a durable plush material. There is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to.

I don't like the hybrids or memory foam beds due to the heat.


Simply being a “hybrid” mattress isn’t necessarily an indicator of the “warmth” of a mattress. The materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin and softer mattresses or foam toppers will tend to be more "insulating" and for some people can sleep warmer than firmer versions of the same material. Overall, it's not really possible to quantify the sleeping temperature of a mattress for any particular person with any real accuracy because there are so many variables involved including the type of mattress protector and the sheets and bedding that you use (which in many cases can have just as significant an effect on sleeping temperature as the type of foam in a mattress) and on where you are in the "oven to iceberg" range and because there is no standardized testing for temperature regulation with different combinations of materials ... there is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range.

I heard many of them (especially the softer ones) also break down too much wherever you sleep, so it's not really an answer either.


This would mostly be a function of the density of the materials used within the product (see the article I linked to earlier regarding durability guidelines). There are good and bad quality memory foam and “hybrid” mattresses available, but unfortunately it seems like too many mattresses in general are using lower-density foams these days, which is one of the reasons it’s so important for you to learn about the componentry within any mattress you’re considering.

To help guide you through your mattress selection process, the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

In its simplest form ... choosing the "best possible" mattress for any particular person really comes down to FIRST finding a few knowledgeable and transparent retailers and/or manufacturers (either locally or online) that sell the types of mattresses that you are most interested in that are in a budget range you are comfortable with and that you have confirmed will provide you with the all the information you need about the materials and components inside the mattresses they sell so you will be able to make informed choices and meaningful comparisons between mattresses and then:

1. Careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) to make sure that a mattress is a good match for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP ... and/or that you are comfortable with the options you have available to return, exchange, or "fine tune" the mattress and any costs involved if you can't test a mattress in person or aren't confident that your mattress is a suitable choice. It seems that testing something locally might be your best option, as you definitely seem to prefer a very plush style of mattress.

2. Checking to make sure that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you are considering relative to your weight/BMI range that could compromise the durability and useful life of the mattress.

3. Comparing your finalists for "value" based on #1 and #2 and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
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