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Searched for: Fox Mattress
06 Jan 2012 20:58
  • raybruce93
  • raybruce93's Avatar
Hi, Phoenix...just found this website, have read the overviews and am interested in finding local/regional manufacturers of mattresses within abut a 50 mile radius of Savannah, GA. Our zip is 31419.

Fox Mattress is about a 4 hour drive from us, otherwise we would do business with them, but are hoping to find options closer by.

Thank you for what you do...we have a string of mattress purchase failures behind us and have simply had it with spending money based on what a chain store salesperson tells us is the best.

So far, we have had a sleep number bed, a King Coil, various Serta and Simmons products and slept on Tempurpedics at family and friends houses (too hot for my hubby).

Looking forward to becoming an educated buyer this time around, hopefully for the last time.

Rachel Bruce
02 Jan 2012 20:13
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi sndslpr,

Your post is a great chance to expand on some of the most common frustrations (at least for me and I know many others) in the mattress industry and one of the reasons I make some of the suggestions that I do.

There are really 3 stages or processes of foam "breakdown". The first stage is often referred to as the break in period. This is the initial 90 days or so when most polyfoam or memory foam will soften more rapidly. The lower the quality of foam (measured by density) ... the more this will happen.

The second stage of foam breakdown is the more gradual softening that happens after this. Once again ... the lower the quality of the foam the faster this will happen.

The last stage of foam breakdown is when it actually starts to form deeper impressions and starts to break down and degrade. Once again .... the lower the quality of foam (or the higher the weight of the people on the mattress) the faster this will happen even though this is a longer term process.

Warranties don't cover the first two because they have what are called "exclusions" and a warranty claim will only be honored if the actual impression when someone is off the mattress is deeper than the exclusion (in many cases 1.5" but sometimes .75" with better quality memory foam or latex). Polyfoam and memory foam will still have enough resiliency left to come back "close to level" long after the softening process (stage 1 and 2) has made the mattress unsuitable for sleeping.

This is also one of the reasons I like good quality latex because the initial softening is much less than other foams, the more gradual softening process takes much longer, and the breakdown takes even longer yet. While all foam that is used in the upper layers of a mattress will go through these three processes .... good quality latex will last much longer for every stage (although all foam materials have higher quality more durable versions and lower quality less durable versions).

Almost all of the major manufacturers use several inches of lower density soft polyfoam (or a fiber that will compress) in their mattress and the thicker these layers are and the closer to the top of the mattress they are ... the more they are likely to become the weak link of the mattress. A mattress with say 2" of low quality/density foam or more near the top will greatly increase the odds that the mattress will lose the properties that make it suitable for a particular individual even though all the rest of the foam and the innersprings are still in good shape. In those few cases where these major manufacturers don't have the lower quality foam in their mattress ... the prices are often much higher than a similar quality mattress bought from a local manufacturer.

When a foam softens ... if you put a high quality topper on top of it ... the softened layers become the support layers for the topper over it and the topper will follow the soft spots or any sagging in the mattress when there is weight on it which is why it is much more difficult to try and "fix" a mattress that has softened in a particular area (usually the heavier areas of the body such as the hips and pelvic area) or where the comfort layers were too soft or thick initially by adding a topper. At best a firmer topper may provide a partial or temporary solution and at worst it could make things worse (it could make the top layer you are sleeping on too firm in terms of "comfort" and pressure relief and the layers underneath it may still be too soft to provide good support/alignment under the topper). Support comes primarily from the deeper layers of the mattress and while adding a topper can help with pressure relief and "fix" a mattress that is too firm ... it will only have a minimal to small and likely temporary effect on the support properties of the mattress (see post #4 here as well)

Turning a mattress (more often in the beginning and then less frequently) or even better yet flipping it as well (for a 2 sided mattress which most major manufacturers don't make any more) can significantly delay these processes but won't stop them. This is often another advantage to buying a mattress from a local manufacturer because many of them will fix an issue like this if it becomes necessary by replacing the problem layer for a very reasonable charge.

6-7 years is well within the range where any lower quality foam will have softened enough to cause the types of issues you are having with your mattress ... and it's often much less. This is called "built in obsolescence", is done by intent IMO, and is not covered by warranty because of the exclusions I mentioned earlier in this post. The heavier a person is and the more mechanical stress that their sleeping habits create on the upper layers of a mattress ... the faster these processes will occur.

Some of the options to check or that may help if a mattress becomes less supportive because of the softening or breakdown of materials (or was too soft originally) include ...

1. Check the foundation of your mattress to make sure the loss or lack of support is in the mattress itself and not in the foundation (where the mattress is following a dip in the foundation or innerspring under the mattress). The same holds true for the bed or frame that the foundation is resting on. You can test this by putting the mattress on the floor as well to see if it has the same issues.

2. A product such as the Mattress Remedy or the Mattress Helper (check google for best pricing) or zzzboard placed under the mattress in the area of the sag may provide some help. This is not a perfect solution and can have varying degrees of success depending on circumstances but if it works to provide the extra support you need in the area you need it, it can at least allow you to keep your mattress for a while longer. EDIT: The mattress remedy is no longer available as they have "lost the patent" but they may be working on something similar so I've left it here so that those who read this can check.

3. Thick folded blankets, layers of felted carpet padding, or layers of firmer foam placed under the middle third of your mattress in the area of the sag may give you enough "extra" support in the areas that are sagging similar to #2 to extend the life of your mattress. 1x3" or 1x4" wooden slats placed over your current slats or foundation under the area of the body that needs extra support or to be "lifted" (typically under the pelvis, the lumbar arch, or both) can also provide some extra support under specific areas of the body that may be sinking down or sagging too much and help with alignment You can see an example from one of the members here with some pictures in post #9 here and there are also some suggestions in post #11 here about zoning that may be helpful as well.

4. A product such as a night roll described in the video here may help to provide better support for the recessed areas of the body (such as the waist or small of the back) and may provide better spinal alignment on a mattress that is either too soft or that has developed soft spots or visible impressions and would be well worth a try.

5. Even though the bottom of a one sided mattress isn't really designed for sleeping on and is meant to provide very firm support over a foundation ... it may be worth trying to turn the mattress over and using a topper to add a comfort layer on top of the firmer bottom side. This may or may not work depending on the thickness and softness of the layers that are now on the bottom and whether they are too thick and soft to provide good alignment and support but it would probably be worth risking the price of a good quality topper (and there is less risk if the topper can be returned or exchanged for a different firmness level) instead of replacing the mattress. If you choose to go in this direction there is more information in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to in post #8 here that would be helpful. Since there is usually little give or contouring on the bottom of a mattress to act as a transition layer between the softer top layer (topper) and the firmer support layer of the mattress I would probably lean towards a topper in the 3" - 4" range.

6. If you have a memory foam mattress then adding a topper or a "zoning material" on top of the mattress can reduce the amount of body heat that reaches the memory foam and can help keep it firmer or slow down the time it takes to become softer over the course of the night which can have some effect on improving the firmness and support of the memory foam under the heavier parts of the body which may be "just enough" to make a difference ... at least for a while (see this topic )

7. Turning down the thermostat in your bedroom so you have a cooler sleeping environment may firm up memory foam somewhat or once again slow down the length of time it takes to become softer over the course of the night.

8. Rebuilding your mattress. This would be possible if there is a local manufacturer near you that is willing to do this and can replace any failing layers or layers that are too thick or soft with better quality materials or build a more suitable design using some of the old layers or components and then close up the mattress again so in effect you have an "almost new" mattress with a professional "finished" appearance at a much lower cost than replacing the whole mattress. In the case of a component mattress with a zip cover of course then you could replace individual layers.

9. Mattress Surgery. This can be a last resort when there are no other reasonable options. This involves cutting open the mattress ... removing the layers of foam inside that either are or will cause problems ... and then replacing them with higher quality foam over the innersprings or other mattress support layers (which will almost certainly still be fine). The current mattress ticking can either be re-used (either re-sewn or velcroed back together) or a zipper mattress ticking that fits the thickness of your "new" mattress can be used. While this can certainly be fun, it can also be intimidating and challenging (and can be difficult to remove foam in some mattresses if the layers are glued together) and would involve some research into what foams you would use to replace the ones you have. There is more about mattress surgery in post #2 here .

So outside of removing and replacing layers that are either sagging or are too soft there are really no great options to fix a sagging mattress, a mattress that was too soft initially, or a mattress that has developed soft spots but there are at least lower cost ways that might be worth trying that may help enough to extend the life of what you have. The real issue is that these types of mattresses are so common in the industry today ... even in the higher budget "premium" mattresses ... and that so many people are facing the same issues as you are, many of them after even less time than yours.

22 Dec 2011 17:45
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Suzanne,

all the layers will be 100% natural latex. I am making this. what do I glue it with? Thank You, Suaanne

Most (or at least many) places that sell natural latex will also sell water based latex glue which is very strong and doesn't have the offgassing issues of other types of glue. Local foam shops will also normally carry it as will many local manufacturers.

You can also choose to add "edge support" on either just the sides or all the way around. Normally it is around the lower layers rather than the upper layers (see the iComfort edge support example here )

If you are ordering your latex in separate "uncovered" layers with an eye to making your own mattress or even fabricating your own layers (cutting a layer and then gluing a racetrack around it or on the sides of it) ... I would also make sure that the outlet you are ordering from is reputable as there are several that will sell you something which is not labelled correctly and what you receive may not be what you think you are ordering.

I'd love to hear about your "design" and how it goes.

09 Dec 2011 04:22
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Essentia,

Thanks for coming to the forum :)

I'm rather impressed with how you monitor various forums across the web and it would be great if some of the questions that have never been answered ( such as here ) could be answered this time. But first let me put a few data points out there and connect a few dots ... and there are quite a few of them to connect This may be a long post.

The earliest use of the Essentia trademark was in June 8th 2005 and was applied for by IBS International Bedding Systems. IBS was a precursor to 4205081 Canada Inc and Giacomo, Elizabeth, and Victor Dell'Accio were directors. It was abandoned on Aug 25, 2006. Their address was listed as 1597 Cunard Street LAVAL QC H7S 2B4

They also applied for two other trademarks which were Viscotex and Softline and Viscotex was abandoned on August 11, 2006 and softline is still live.

On July 30, 2007, the Essentia trademark was applied for by IBC group which as a matter of interest (not connected) have just gone into chapter 11. The trademark was abandoned on Dec 22nd, 2009. The similarity in name (between International bedding Systems and International Bedding Corp) between companies registering the same trademark is quite a co-incidence.
ADMIN NOTE:Retired Website | Archived Footprint: ibcgroup.com/

Next was on December 6th 2007 when the Essentia trademark was applied for by 6860966 Canada Inc and was registered on Dec 23rd, 2008 and is still live.

6860966 Canada was registered on Nov 1st, 2007 and its directors are Giacomo Dell'Accio and Carmen Carpanzano. Their address is 2760 DANIEL-JOHNSON BLVD, Laval QC (Essentia's contact address).

Prior to IBS's application to register Viscotex, Factory Direct Inc (which is Lady Americana) applied for Viscotex on March 28th, 2005 and it was registered on Sept 6th 2006 and they still own it. Was there a fight for ownership of this trademark? Was this the company where Jack worked previously?

In the patent application submitted by Giacomo Dell'Accio, its clear that the "latex memory foam" is a central core of latex (in its preferred application) surrounded on all sides except the bottom by memory foam. There is also a method of pouring the memory foam around the latex layer in the application.

In the Essentia trademark documents that can be downloaded here ... there is a reference to "previous use" of the trademark with some pictures. One of these pictures includes the term "Energie Bio Lux" in the description.

Bio-lux is a trademark of North Carolina Foam Industries who produces polyurethane foam that uses Bioh polyols to achieve 50% plant based polyol replacement (replacing petrochemical polyols). A search also shows which is a furniture manufacturer which is using a combination of memory foam and latex with such similar wording that it could easily have been the inspiration or even involved in Essentia.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: davidedward.com/website/pdf-downloads/GSA_Pricer_2011.pdf

5750 Rue Maurice-Cullen, Laval, Quebec is an address of record listed on the trademark application and approval for Essentia and for IBS and several other Dell'Accio companies. This is also an address for Elmo Foam Inc. whose main address is 1597, Cunard street, Laval. This is also the address for another company they own called Blu Sleep Products who is making some very nice latex and memory foam and gel pillows and toppers. They also are a licensee to produce the pillows and toppers for T3 recovery products who makes the ironman mattress.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: /elmofoam.com/en/index.shtml

A search on the street view of Essentia's addrress where they are supposedly pouring foam shows the office of InnoVisCo Logistics (Canada) Inc owned by Yves Gagnon who also owns IT logistics beside it. The description of InnoVisCo is "value added warehousing service as a 3PL Logistics provider" and value added includes "pick & pack, light assembly, storage, cross-dock, distribution, grouping, de-consolidation and any other customized service to customer". That sure doesn't sound like foam pouring to me.

Elmo foam is doing some nice fabricating but they also don't seem to be pouring foam. They would however make a good source for the latex inside the "latex memory foam".

So wherever you have seen the foam being poured and whatever it is ... it is clear that it is the stuff (memory foam) that you call "a petrochemically derived health hazardous foam with a slow response." with some of the polyols replaced with plant oils and which is being poured around latex.

The reason for all these dots (and there are many more there to be connected) is not to denigrate your product ... but to show that what you are saying just doesn't ring true. If you have a quality product ... then say what it really is so that people can make meaningful comparisons instead of tearing down other products or materials that you yourself are using in your layers and using partial truths to build a story that isn't all its cracked up to be. There is just too much information on your site that is only partly true or in some cases not true at all.

If you were more transparent and truthful about what you are producing ... then a lot of people who want to like your product and company on closer scrutiny wouldn't have the credibility issues with you that is apparent on many of the forum threads you have participated in around the internet.

None of this has anything to do with what you are producing ... it has only to do with what you are saying on your site and in public forums across the internet.

So what companies did Jack work for during the 12 years he worked in latex?

23 Oct 2011 21:45
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi dlin,

I also like adjustable bases but in a split king version they are not inexpensive. I would compare apples to apples though and first decide on mattresses as there may be much better value in buying an adjustable base somewhere else. For example ... the Reverie Deluxe and the Erogmotion Deluxe are both available here in split king versions for under $2000 and these are the higher end of these two manufacturers. The leggett and Platt have less value IMO but even the highest end L&P the Prodigy (with all kinds of bells and whistles) is available for under $3000 and I am guessing that the adjustable bed you tried was the lowest model (with wired remote such as this one ) which if you were looking here (a guess based on a quick google search) is more than the higher models I mentioned.

I would certainly avoid any memory foam mattress where you didn't know the density of the memory foam and the quality of the polyfoam underneath it. While the Cloud 7 appears to be using good memory foam which I am guessing could be Aerus ... it would likely be 4 lb and with only 2" it would likely be of comparable or possibly lesser value to this . Assuming this is correct, a split king version of this would be well under $800.

While this is involving some guesswork ... it appears that what you were being offered for $2995 could have been purchased elsewhere for under $2300.

In terms of the Natura ... while they are good quality mattresses, it appears to me that it too is overpriced based on the layering you outlined ... even if you take $2500 off of your quoted price for the adjustable base. It does say though that you like a latex comfort layer ... although it is always wise to test a mattress without a base that is raised since it does not give you a sense of the mattress itself and you cannot sleep with your feet raised while you are on your side. This is an old mattress selling trick that distorts the feel of the mattress you are considering.

There are two factory direct outlets near you that would be well worth a visit.

www.foxmattress.com/ They are a local factory direct that also manufactures all types of mattresses including latex. They are a member here and I have talked with Rick the owner enough to know that he is exceptionally helpful and knowledgeable. They make high quality mattresses and have great value. They would be well worth driving the slightly greater distance to Orange City.

www.originalmattress.com/locations They are a regional factory direct that manufactures all types of mattresses and have two latex models. They have good quality and good value.

There is a third that I should mention however while I have talked with them in the last week or so ... I need to do a little more research into them. They are www.orlandomattresscompany.com/content/contact and they make(and custom build) latex mattresses that also seem to have good value based on prices they quoted me on our conversation. They were (and are) listed at another address and phone number at the BBB as being out of business though so I'm not sure yet if they went under and were resurrected or are a different company.

In any case ... between these three ... and particularly Fox Mattress ... you will likely find the best value for a mattress in or near Orlando. If they can also sell you an adjustable base with the mattress that is comparable to the prices I listed ... then this would be a bonus. Otherwise you could order this online.

01 Oct 2011 15:48
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Kent,

I talked with Diamond Mattress today and they do have 2 factory direct outlets in Salt Lake City and Sandy (this store may now be closed) as well as supply to local retail outlets. They confirmed they don't have a website. They manufacture mostly innerspring mattresses but also have memory foam and latex. They use 4 and 5lb Foamex memory foams in their memory foam mattresses and also make mattresses with latex comfort layers with no polyfoam over the latex (and can make all latex as well). They would certainly be worth a visit.

22 Sep 2011 18:51
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Rae,

The closest manufacturer direct outlets to you that I know of are these ...

www.foxmattress.com/ Holly Hill, FL (Recommended and a member of this site)

www.orlandomattresscompany.com/ Orlando, FL

www.originalmattress.com/locations Kissimmee, Orlando area, FL

www.furniturerow.com/locations/locationsByState.jsp?state=Florida Daytona, FL

www.palmbeachmattress.com/ West Palm Beach, FL

schraderbeds.com/ West Palm Beach, FL

Of these ... the closest and the one that I would recommend (because I know them best and think very highly of them) is Fox Mattress. Rick is very knowledgeable about materials and construction and how to fit a mattress to an individual and also offers great value which is why I invited him to become a member here.

While it is a bit of a drive ... working with someone who knows their stuff can save hours of research into what type of mattress is suitable for you and then finding an outlet who will actually tell you what is in their mattress ... layer by layer ... and knows how different materials and layering combinations can work together to your benefit and which types of materials provide the best value.

ADDED Sept, 2013:

I did some local research and for those in the general area that are looking for something more local this is the list of the better options and possibilities in the area (out of over 40 retailers and chain stores in the area) and the brands they carry that I would focus on (that have better odds of being able to provide you with the quality of the materials inside their mattresses). They have all (except one) told me that they would provide the specs of the mattresses listed.

www.facebook.com/ManhattanGallery/ Melbourne, FL. Biscayne Bedding incl. latex, latex / innerspring hybrid, and gel memory foam (their website was down when I last looked but they are still open).

Melbourne, FL. I called them and they told me that they are a small manufacturer that makes innerspring mattresses (including two sided) on the premises and sell mainly through Craigs List. I was originally happy to find a small local manufacturer but when I told them about my site and asked them about the range of foam densities that they use they refused to tell me, told me that they had another customer, and when I asked again hung up the phone on me and blocked my number so I couldn't call back. I would be very cautious about going here and unlike other smaller manufacturers they certainly don't appear to be very open about the quality of the mattresses that they make.

www.kanesfurniture.com/ Melbourne, FL. Therapedic (incl Gel memory foam but no latex).

mattressmark.com/ Indian Harbour Beach, FL. Pure Latex Bliss latex (latex)

mattressmarket.org/ Jensen Beach, Vero Beach. Classic Brands, Pure Latex Bliss.

organicmattresshaven.com/ Savvy Rest latex component latex mattresses and Magniflex memory foam mattresses.

www.atlanticwholesalefurniture.com/ Palm Bay, FL. mLily (memory foam), Symbol (incl gel memory foam and latex hybrid).

jimsearsfurniture.com/ Merritt Island, FL. Carries Biscayne Bedding (incl 2 latex mattresses) and Consolidated Bedding. Knowledgeable about materials and will get specs from both Biscayne and Consolidated.

Mims, FL. Carries Jamison (incl latex and gel memory foam), and Bed boss (memory foam) and will call the factory for foam specs on both.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint 1: superpages.com/bp/Melbourne-FL/Melbourne-Mattress-L0007511951.htm| Archived Footprint 2: mattressmark.com/?reqp=1&reqr= |Archived Footprint 3: organicmattresshaven.com/ |Archived Footprint 4: jimsearsfurniture.com/ |Archived Footprint 5:mimsfurniture.com/mattresses-bedrooms

Overall IMO ... if there is a quality independent manufacturer that provides good value within 100 miles or so of where someone lives ... then it can almost always save time, money, and frustration ... to go there and do both your testing and purchasing in one place with the guidance of someone who can be trusted and knows their stuff but there are also some local choices with more knowledgeable staff that would be worth visiting as well. When you are dealing with retailers or manufacturers that will provide you with the specifics of what is in their mattresses and have the knowledge to help educate you instead of "sell" you then you can make much more informed choices and make meaningful quality and value comparisons between mattresses.

Hope this helps

19 Sep 2011 02:27
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Mike,

What great questions :)

In general terms ... any quality independent manufacturer can use materials ... including memory foam ... that will certainly match the quality of tempurpedic at a lower cost. There is a list of memory foam manufacturers on the Certi-Pur site here* ... most of which manufacture a range of memory foams in terms of feel, quality, and density. The highest quality memory foams of most of them (5 lbs and up) would all be high quality and comparable to Tempur material ... even though they would not be exactly the same in feel or characteristics as Tempur foam. Premier for example makes 8 lb memory foams that are very dense and can be used in memory foam layers in the same way that Tempurpedic uses their 7 lb HD material. Foamex also makes higher density memory foams that are available through manufacturers or certain outlets although they are not as widely available through most online outlets. Many will even make custom density and formulation memory foams for certain outlets.
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For example relief mart makes memory foam mattresses that can be customized for each persons needs and can be designed in conjunction with a health professional www.chirosleeper.com/chirosleeper-diagram.htm

As you likely know ... my favorite foam manufacturer is Foamex (FXI) because of the method they use to pour the foam (called VPF). I believe this makes a higher quality more consistent foam ... but this in no way means that the other manufacturers are making poor or "lesser" quality foam. The Sensus is very high quality although in more limited supply and the Aerus is more breathable and faster recovery memory foam and also very high quality (assuming it has 5 lb density).

Essentia marketing is IMO completely misleading since as you say it is not even memory foam but "slow recovery latex" similar to NuForm made by Latex International. Vita (Radium) in Europe makes a similar material. Any manufacturer who orders from LI can use this material in their mattress for those who wish to use it although it may be a custom order. I know that several of our members such as www.okmattress.com/ and www.beloitmattress.com/mattress1.html have used it in several mattresses they have built. Even some of the major manufactures like Comfort solutions (in their Laura Ashley and King Koil), Stearns & Foster , and others use Nuform in some of their mattresses.

OMI was one of the reference points I used in testing latex mattresses when I purchased my mattress as I liked the feel of the Terra. Of course I would never pay those prices for a latex mattress and with enough testing on various mattresses, it was simple to duplicate the feel of that mattress at a much lower cost (less than half).

Part of the difficulty in "knocking off" a memory foam mattress such as Tempurpedic is that even though there are many memory foams that are similar quality ... there are many variables in how each foam feels as memory foam can be formulated in many different ways with many different chemical mixtures. Each of these results in unique temperature and humidity sensitivity, breathability, recovery time, and other properties. There are also other variables such as the choices in support foam and in the ticking and quilting (or lack of it) that can make a significant difference in how a memory foam mattress performs and "matches up" to an individual or to another mattress. All of this means that it is usually wise if possible to take a trip to a local manufacturer and actually test different mattresses as this is the only 100% accurate way to know how it will feel for each individual. All memory foam mattresses only contain a minority of memory foam on top and the type and layering of the memory foam along with the choices in the rest of the mattress can dramatically alter how it feels and how it works for an individual or how it compares to other mattresses. In general ... I believe that many consumers have bought into the idea that more memory foam on top is "better" while I am of the opinion that most memory foam mattresses have too much memory foam on top and that the least amount possible is far better (less spinal alignment issues).

Even various layering mixtures of latex and memory foam in my opinion will feel and perform much better than most memory foam layers by themselves ... although some of this is of course based on personal preference. I personally like an inch of latex over 2-3" of memory foam as it doesn't have the same "stuck in the mattress" feel of thicker layers of memory foam. To make these types of constructions would usually mean working on a custom mattress with a manufacturer who does this. Many people would be very surprised at the value that can be obtained in doing this but it takes a real knowledge of what a person wants and "how to get there". I built my own mattress layer by layer for example (including choices in each layer's thickness down to 1/2 inch) and chose the quilting/ticking knowing how each choice would affect the rest of the mattress. I ended up with a mattress that had never been built "quite that way" before that was perfect for us. I still paid less than half of anything even close to equivalent that would be available at any local outlet.

For those who wish to order a memory foam mattress online when they don't have access to a local manufacturer that is close enough to where they live, there are many options ... but it is a little "risky" since there are many variables that need to be taken into account and I would certainly recommend field testing (especially with layer thickness) to get a sense of what will work. Sleepez for example sells 3 layer "choose your own layer" latex mattresses and he can include 5.5 lb Sensus as the top layer instead of soft latex. This would result in a mattress that had a memory foam comfort layer that could be customized for feel and support by choosing the latex underneath it. The wool quilting on top would result in less "sinking into" the memory foam while the latex underneath could be customized to alter the feel of the memory foam. IMO this would be superior to any Tempur mattress in terms of quality and the latex would certainly be superior to the materials that Tempurpedic uses in their support layers.

There is a small list of memory foam outlets in post #12 here which I will be adding to over time and posting in a more easily accessed location on the forum or the site as I talk with more online outlets and ask them my "list of questions" :).

Because of the variables and risks involved in buying memory foam online and the overwhelming misinformation and lack of transparency on most of the sites that sell online, I have avoided posting a lot of information about this as it can become rather overwhelming and confusing and I believe when it comes to memory foam it is much "safer" and more accurate to work with a local manufacturer where the mattresses can be tested and who knows how changing various layers or other options can affect the entire mattress. Memory foam mattresses can be much harder to "duplicate" than latex and polyfoam because its response varies so much with individual circumstances, layering, and between different foam formulations. I even believe that much of the current popularity of memory foam is based on a lot of misinformation and a lack of meaningful ways for consumers to compare memory foam with other materials that are superior in many ways.

Most people do not realize that memory foam is just a layer in a mattress that is combined with other layers to produce what they "feel". Most also don't realize that what they believe is so comfortable in the store may not feel so comfortable after they sleep on it for many nights and do not always relate the long term effects of their mattress choices to their aches and pains or lack of rest a few months later. This is compounded by the fact that in many cases, by the time people end up replacing their mattress .... almost anything is an improvement even if it is nowhere near what they really need.

There are some sites however that are much more "helpful" than others and that offer various degrees of customization and knowledge and I will slowly add these as my conversations and research justifies it.

Thank you for the questions as it gave me a chance to explore a few ideas and to once again outline the benefit of working with a local manufacturer when possible where I truly believe the best service and value exists for any type of mattress.

If in my "wanderings" I've missed answering anything or if you need more specifics ... feel free to ask :)

17 Sep 2011 00:34
  • phoenix
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Hi Funky,

Unfortunately my Reverie base is a queen size but I would assume that the Tempurpedic measurement would be correct as bases are usually a little smaller than the mattress size. My queen Reverie for example is 58.5" x 79" (I just measured it to make sure). The dimensions here confirm what you were told by Tempur and what I measured in my queen.

I'm pretty sure you'll be fine.

Congratulations on your new mattress :)

16 Sep 2011 18:36
  • Gene
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Phoenix -

Thank you for replying to me about your talk with OMF regarding their latex mattresses. Also, I thank you for providing me with a local manufacturer in the Orlando area. I visited the Fox website and now will visit their showroom in Orange City.

Again, I really appreciate your help.

15 Sep 2011 20:52
  • phoenix
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Hi Gene,

Reply #2 here lists several independent manufacturers in the area.

OMF is a good manufacturer but unfortunately they only have 2 latex models and little way to customize them if they don't work for an individual. The basic is a 32 ILD latex core quilted with an inch of polyfoam on both sides and so would be rather firm for most people and sleeping positions. The supreme is 1.5" of 19 ILD convoluted latex with an inch of polyfoam quilting in the comfort layer over the same core which means it would be very soft in the comfort layer since the convoluted latex would be the rough equivalent of 14 ILD or even less.

I have talked with them on several occasions including this morning (to the factory) and I suggested that with the rapidly increasing interest in latex (one of the fastest growing segments of the industry) they would do well to increase their latex selection and hopefully remove the 1" of polyfoam that they have as this would give people looking for latex a way to have more choices in both the comfort layers and the support core.

Fox mattress orange city location IMO would be by far the best way to go out of the two near you since they would have a greater selection of latex choices so you could find the layering that was best for you and they are a factory direct manufacturer with great service and value. The short drive would be well worth it. They are also a member here so you would be eligible for a 5% discount if you let them know that you are a consumer member of this site.

The actual thickness of a latex core that is suitable for an individual would depend on weight and preferences. Latex cores are normally 5.5" - 6" thick depending on the type of latex and the manufacturer and in the vast majority of cases this would be fine. The thickness of the comfort layer on top of this would vary with the individual. This would usually be in the range of 1" - 3" depending on the sleeping position and weight distribution. This means that the total latex in a mattress that was suitable for the vast majority would be between 6.5" (5.5" core + 1" comfort layer) to 9" (6" core and 3" comfort layer). Two sided mattresses would add the thickness of the comfort layer to both sides (as in the OMF).

Some people who are very light could easily use a thinner core (and likely a thinner/softer comfort layer) while those who are very heavy may use some additional thickness an/or firmness in the support core and the comfort layers. A latex mattress that is on a tension adjustable slatted base which acts as part of the active support system can use an even thinner core. OMF usually displays their latex mattresses on an innerspring which I personally don't think is the best idea but it would also allow for a thinner support core.

Latex has a very high progressive compression rate (what is called support factor) and so can be successfully used in thinner support layers and thinner overall mattresses than other foams and types of mattresses.

12 Sep 2011 15:13
  • phoenix
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Hi Sonic,

The Sams club mattress (and yes it is the same as the Innomax white night ) is made of Dunlop latex in all the layers. This means that for most people ... it will feel firmer than the "specs" would indicate. I would recommend that for most people ... a Talalay comfort layer will be more pressure relieving and more comfortable. Similar mattresses which can be customized in each layer are available at a lower cost than Sam's Club from some of our members which sell a layered DIY mattress online. If you are looking at approx 8" of latex instead of 9" (with Talalay on top), then the costs go down even further. For example ...

www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-10000.htm ($1650 for 9" all talalay or Dunlop your choice wool quilted)

www.sleepez.com/latex-mattress-sale.htm ($1145 for 8" dunlop support ... talalay on top with non quilted cover)

www.mattresses.net/queen-adjustable-ultra-plush-latex-sleep-system.html ($1195 for 8" all talalay with a wool quilted cover)

www.mygreenmattress.com ($1345 for 9" two sided all talalay with a wool quilted cover on both sides. This one is not a "DIY" mattress)

If you don't mind driving 30-40 miles ... then one of our members foxmattress.com/ can give you the best of all worlds. The ability to actually test high quality mattresses at an independent factory direct manufacturer, great advice, and mattresses which have great value.

In almost all cases ... independent factory direct manufacturers will have much better value than even the big box stores and they are far more likely (and have the knowledge) to provide a mattress that is much better suited for each individual.

08 Sep 2011 06:12
  • phoenix
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Hi Alan,

I changed the title and created a new thread to make it easier for others in your area to find this thread :)

You are fortunate in that there are several quality independent factory direct manufacturers near you. They are ...

foxmattress.com/ Holly Hill, FL. They are a local factory direct manufacturer that makes all types of mattresses. I have had some great conversations with Rick the owner and he is exceptionally helpful and knowledgeable. They are also a member here which means that I believe they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency. They would be well worth a drive to Holly Hill to include them in your research.

www.orlandomattresscompany.com/ and atlasmattressfactory.com/ Lake Hamilton, FL. They are local manufacturers who are working in partnership and make a range of good quality mattresses. They generally make commercial mattresses for hotels and cruise liners but they also sell direct to customers at the Atlas Mattress showroom. They make traditional mattresses (innerspring/polyfoam using a wide range of foam densities depending on budget), latex, memory foam, and microcoils and are transparent about the type and quality of the materials that they use. Both Orlando Mattress and Atlas Mattress can provide information about the materials inside any of their mattresses but at the Atlas Mattress Factory showroom their first language is Spanish so while they can certainly answer general questions ... for more technical questions it may be a good idea to call Orlando Mattress if you don't speak Spanish. They can also custom build.

denvermattress.furniturerow.com/dmc/ Daytona Beach, FL. Regional factory direct manufacturer who makes a wide range of traditional innerspring mattresses including some with latex in the comfort layers and their iChoice which is a mostly latex mattress with either a latex or memory foam topper. Some good quality and value.

www.originalmattress.com/locations Orlando, Ocoee, Kissimmee, Apopka, Lake Mary, FL. They are a regional factory direct that manufactures all types of mattresses. Their mattresses include a two sided latex hybrid and memory foam models as well as traditional innerspring mattresses. They have some good quality and good value choices.

www.relaxincomfort.com/ Winter Park, Sanford, The Villages, Windermere, FL. They carry Savvy Rest mattresses which are a line of high quality component latex mattresses that give you a choice between organic Dunlop and 100% natural Talalay latex but I would also make some careful value comparisons here because they are also in higher budget ranges than other similar mattresses.

www.ikea.com/us/en/ Orlando. See post #3 here for comments about their mattresses.


PS: If you register on the site and post under your username ... you also qualify for a discount or "bonus" at any of our manufacturing members including of course Fox Mattress. Just let Rick know you are a member and your username.
13 Apr 2011 03:12
  • phoenix
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I'd like to welcome Fox Mattress in Volusia County, FL as our newest Manufacturing member. I had a great conversation with Rick the owner and as you can see from his website, he is another high value local mattress manufacturer who believes in the same principles that is the reason for The Mattress Underground.

We now have 9 of the highest value mattress manufacturers as part of our membership and as our efforts move towards increasing consumer awareness of our website, we will continue to do our part in increasing the visibility of these manufacturers and others like them who manufacture the "off brands" which represent real mattress value in North America.

Thanks again Rick for your support!

Fox Mattress: Volusia County, FL. www.foxmattress.com/
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