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Searched for: sleepworks
06 Feb 2022 01:57
  • nickg
  • nickg's Avatar
In the bay area and tried two stores. Narrowed it down to the Nest Owl www.nestbedding.com/products/owl-natural-latex-hybrid-mattress
or the European sleep works Alpine and Alpine HDM. sleepworks.com/mattress/prices/

The nest owl seems significantly cheaper (several hundred), and has 3" dunlop foam on top of 6" coils (and some other synthetic foam)
The alpine hdm and alpine are both 2" of talalay on microcoils and base coils.

My partner is a smaller side sleeper with hip pain issues, I am a back sleeper with no issues. She preferred the alpine but liked both options. I'm not sure I understand why the alpine is so much more costly with less material, is it an economics of scale issue? Does the makeup of either mattress seem like it would suit our needs?
27 Feb 2021 13:45
  • empusa
  • empusa's Avatar

...My former mattress was a Simmons beauty rest maybe 10 years plus and was fine!
I am unable to find an organic mattress that actually is firm and somewhat comfortable.
I have so far tried avocado green and European Sleepworks and now Naturepedic. ...

I was super excited for my naturepedic mattress (latex free) and it has been comfortable but TOTALLY SAGGING and I've only had it for about 2 months. When I say sagging - it's likely not something the company would cover because it's more the FEEL of the mattress- it is way too sinky for adequate support regardless of the coil level....

What to do??? Latex is out for me.
Also from what I have learned, any of the higher end organic mattresses (Vispring, Royal pedic, holy lamb) that don't use latex are all just marketing the same unreliable product- cotton/ wool batting on innersprings. I spoke with a mattress maker and he candidly told me he has stopped making organic mattresses that use cotton /OR wool that is not already pre-compressed over springs because these ALWAYS develop sagging/ impressions and he thinks they are a bad product and won't sell them to his customers anymore nor can he stand sleeping on them. He is considering creating a mattress that is pre compressed wool on springs. So maybe I can create this myself?

The other change for me is not using a box spring since this organic search began.

Questions:
Could it be I’m not used to sleeping on a slatted bed and a box spring would make the mattress i have feel more supportive ? Was hoping to avoid more metal but if it will help with support..Could a slatted wood frame make the mattress feel saggy or too soft? It’s from savvy rest and the slats are 3 inches apart.


I'm throwing in the towel too with my Naturepedic EOS pillowtop. I feel the "sogginess" too. I suspecting that is sags over night. It seems to be supportive (back sleeper) at the beginning of the night, but when I wake up there is an indentation.

What are your observations of the European Sleep Works?
23 Dec 2020 08:56
  • Sensei
  • Sensei's Avatar
Hey Venus,

Welcome back to the forum :) . Thanks for your new question and your updates.

So I've been on a quest for an organic mattress for about a year now. I am so shocked by HOW bad they are and how there seem to be none that are truly supportive if you can't use latex! I really had no clue and of course maybe it's just my comfort level but I have not been able to find a mattress yet that doesn't sag, sink and cause me back pain (which I did not have until I began this search!).


You have indeed been quite busy with your organic mattress testing this past year, Venus! I read through your previous post to get up to speed on where you left things, and it seems you still have an ongoing work in progress.

My former mattress was a Simmons beauty rest maybe 10 years plus and was fine!
I am unable to find an organic mattress that actually is firm and somewhat comfortable. I have so far tried avocado green and European Sleepworks and now Naturepedic. Latex totally doesn't work for me- I felt all the pushback from it and my body was fighting with it all night regardless of the firmness or softness.


There are many fans of the older Simmons Beauty Rest mattresses, Venus. Their more "traditional" construction of a quilted top innerspring mattress remains popular today. And not everyone likes the "lively" feeling that latex gives; in fact, 90% of all mattresses sold currently are latex-free. There are many material alternatives to latex available out there for your consideration. If your preference is for an organic mattress, the main component to avoid is polyfoam of any kind in the construction.

I was super excited for my naturepedic mattress (latex free) and it has been comfortable but TOTALLY SAGGING and I've only had it for about 2 months. When I say sagging - it's likely not something the company would cover because it's more the FEEL of the mattress- it is way too sinky for adequate support regardless of the coil level.
I have tried all the variations bc the sales person here was very helpful and accommodating and so even the medium comfort layer (top) atop the medium coils is horrific and sagging.


Which Naturepedic mattress do you have and what size is it? To better understand the source of its sagging "feel"/ lack of support, have your tried placing the mattress directly on the floor for several nights of sleep testing to rule out problems with your foundation? Did you purchase directly from Naturepedic? If so, they have a 90 return policy and would likely work to help remedy your situation.

Since starting this search I have badly injured my shoulder and now need PT from the accumulated lack of adequate support all these months.


Sorry to hear of your shoulder injury, Venus! Pressure point pain coupled with inadequate support can definitely be an ongoing source of frustration and sleep deprivation. It would be helpful to have some of your personal statistics for better understanding what materials and construction would be better suited for your preferences: what is your height, weight, body profile/ weight distribution and preferred sleeping position(s)?

What to do??? Latex is out for me. Also from what I have learned, any of the higher end organic mattresses (Vispring, Royal pedic, holy lamb) that don't use latex are all just marketing the same unreliable product- cotton/ wool batting on innersprings. I spoke with a mattress maker and he candidly told me he has stopped making organic mattresses that use cotton /OR wool that is not already pre-compressed over springs because these ALWAYS develop sagging/ impressions and he thinks they are a bad product and won't sell them to his customers anymore nor can he stand sleeping on them. He is considering creating a mattress that is pre compressed wool on springs. So maybe I can create this myself?


Cotton and wool are two of the most commonly used natural fibers in a mattress's construction. The main difference in the performance of natural fibers in the comfort layers is their lack of elasticity and resilience, requiring various construction methods to create those qualities. Tufting and other construction methods are used to help overcome the tendency of all-natural fibers to compress and become firmer over time. Unlike foams, the compression and the impressions natural fibers leave in your mattress is not an indicator of material breakdown and is a part of the pressure-relieving properties of the mattress. To characterize cotton or wool as a "bad product" that "always develops sagging/ impressions" is a bit of a unfair generalization, as they are two of the oldest and most widely used mattress construction elements and while they are subject to compression issues, they serve their roles well when cared for properly over time.

The other change for me is not using a box spring since this organic search began.
Questions:
Could it be I’m not used to sleeping on a slatted bed and a box spring would make the mattress i have feel more supportive ? Was hoping to avoid more metal but if it will help with support..Could a slatted wood frame make the mattress feel saggy or too soft? It’s from savvy rest and the slats are 3 inches apart.


From the Naturepedic's site, the warranty states that the mattress should be supported by a solid platform or a foundation equivalent to what is offered by Naturepedic, theirs being a slatted wood foundation with a center support. Is your Savvy Rest slatted wood frame similar? Many variables affect the support a slatted wood frame offers, not only the spacing of the slats but their width, thickness and type wood used are also considerations.

Is it possible that my bed frame slats are too wide apart and are making my naturepedic mattress feel saggy?


That could be the case, Venus. Again, trying the mattress for several nights on the floor will better indicate whether the foundation's support is the problem or the mattress itself.

What I cannot figure out is whether it's just not possible to find an organic mattress (latex free) that doesn't sag and provides firm support that isn't like a rock to sleep on? Has anyone found something supportive for their back that doesn't sag?
Also, am I expecting too much wanting some bounce from my mattress? I need to be able to have a firm enough mattress that if I want to shift positions from sleeping on my back to my side, that I can use the mattress for STURDY leverage to do so. I never had this issue with mainstream mattresses. They had enough spring to support changing positions without me feeling I was sinking or drowning in the mattress when I push my feet into it to roll onto my side.


A mattress using natural materials and a pocket coil support core is what you're describing, (and what you discussed with your local manufacturer previously). The responsive nature of the pocket coil array should give the support you seek, as well as the feeling of sturdy leverage for changing positions in the bed. A quality pocket coil support, such as Leggett & Platt's Quantum Edge Elite Bolsa unit is made with certified recycled American steel and nonwoven fabric, both of which are bio-degradable as well and checks off the organic box on your list.

Given that I would prefer to have some bounce/ some support - what do you think about going with a wool mattress ? I have researched them a bit and am not sure if they are good for people who need good support and have some pain issues. Does it just take getting used to not having springs? is it healthy for the back truly (if you're over 45?)
Any suggestions/ really good experience anyone has had sleeping on a wool mattress ?.. Has anyone had luck adding some padding and /or some springs underneath that might offer some bounce back support? Has anyone tried using pocket coils or innersprings with their wool mattress with success ? How much maintenance is needed for wool? I'm aware it needs to be rotated


You may find trusted member Shepherd's Dream's site helpful for learning more about wool mattresses. From their blog , you can read more about both the benefits and limitations of wool mattresses, as well as learn more about the care required for maintenance. You've also gotten good feedback from a number of consumer subscribers on your other post, hope you have found some of those to be useful. You may want to try a site search using the terms "wool mattress" or "wool topper" to find what other conversations may be helpful for your research.

I have a frame with wood slats so would be open to the DIY setup but really can't mess around with risky things/ iffy supports when I need my body to be well supported.
Also wondering how people fare on futons with no springs (cotton or wool) if they have pain or back issues?


Futons are an intriguing alternative to traditional mattresses and can provide a satisfying sleep for those who prefer extra firm support. If you're planning to use your existing foundation, be sure that it will support the futon you're considering as the slats on your current setup may be too far apart and not support it correctly.

Open to any ideas or mattresses you have found that are latex free and hold up even if they are not perfectly organic at this point. I am sensitive to chemicals but I also need to be able to sleep and not get injured.
Thanks!


Just a final thought here Venus, regarding organic mattresses. For other consumers following your research and trying to better understand what makes a mattress "organic", here is a good explanation offered by SleepFoundation.org :

"The term “organic mattress” gets thrown around a lot, but it’s only accurate some of the time. Unfortunately, green-washing is all too common in the mattress industry. Brands will advertise “eco-friendly” and “natural” mattress materials that are mostly chemical-based, or tout “sustainable manufacturing practices” without going into detail about how the beds are actually made. These misleading tactics can make finding a truly organic mattress pretty difficult.
Here’s our rule of thumb: to qualify as an organic mattress, the bed should contain organic and/ or natural materials with reputable certifications. The Global Organic Textile Standard (GOTS) and Global Organic Latex Standard (GOLS) are considered the leading certifications for organic components. Additional certifications recognize non-organic materials that are nonetheless natural, eco-friendly, and sustainable. Others indicate the material has been inspected for and does not contain harmful substances. There are dozens of certifications for bedding products, some more legitimate than others."

Hope this helps and that PT will help ease your shoulder pain until you can get your mattress sagging issues resolved :).

Thanks,
Sensei
19 Dec 2020 12:35
  • Venus
  • Venus's Avatar
So I've been on a quest for an organic mattress for about a year now. I am so shocked by HOW bad they are and how there seem to be none that are truly supportive if you can't use latex! I really had no clue and of course maybe it's just my comfort level but I have not been able to find a mattress yet that doesn't sag, sink and cause me back pain (which I did not have until I began this search!).

My former mattress was a Simmons beauty rest maybe 10 years plus and was fine!
I am unable to find an organic mattress that actually is firm and somewhat comfortable.
I have so far tried avocado green and European Sleepworks and now Naturepedic.
Latex totally doesn't work for me- I felt all the pushback from it and my body was fighting with it all night regardless of the firmness or softness.

I was super excited for my naturepedic mattress (latex free) and it has been comfortable but TOTALLY SAGGING and I've only had it for about 2 months. When I say sagging - it's likely not something the company would cover because it's more the FEEL of the mattress- it is way too sinky for adequate support regardless of the coil level.
I have tried all the variations bc the sales person here was very helpful and accommodating and so even the medium comfort layer (top) atop the medium coils is horrific and sagging.

Since starting this search I have badly injured my shoulder and now need PT from the accumulated lack of adequate support all these months.

What to do??? Latex is out for me.
Also from what I have learned, any of the higher end organic mattresses (Vispring, Royal pedic, holy lamb) that don't use latex are all just marketing the same unreliable product- cotton/ wool batting on innersprings. I spoke with a mattress maker and he candidly told me he has stopped making organic mattresses that use cotton /OR wool that is not already pre-compressed over springs because these ALWAYS develop sagging/ impressions and he thinks they are a bad product and won't sell them to his customers anymore nor can he stand sleeping on them. He is considering creating a mattress that is pre compressed wool on springs. So maybe I can create this myself?

The other change for me is not using a box spring since this organic search began.

Questions:
Could it be I’m not used to sleeping on a slatted bed and a box spring would make the mattress i have feel more supportive ? Was hoping to avoid more metal but if it will help with support..Could a slatted wood frame make the mattress feel saggy or too soft? It’s from savvy rest and the slats are 3 inches apart.

Is it possible that my bed frame slats are too wide apart and are making my naturepedic mattress feel saggy?

What I cannot figure out is whether it's just not possible to find an organic mattress (latex free) that doesn't sag and provides firm support that isn't like a rock to sleep on? Has anyone found something supportive for their back that doesn't sag?
Also, am I expecting too much wanting some bounce from my mattress? I need to be able to have a firm enough mattress that if I want to shift positions from sleeping on my back to my side, that I can use the mattress for STURDY leverage to do so. I never had this issue with mainstream mattresses. They had enough spring to support changing positions without me feeling I was sinking or drowning in the mattress when I push my feet into it to roll onto my side.

Given that I would prefer to have some bounce/ some support - what do you think about going with a wool mattress ? I have researched them a bit and am not sure if they are good for people who need good support and have some pain issues. Does it just take getting used to not having springs? is it healthy for the back truly (if you're over 45?)
Any suggestions/ really good experience anyone has had sleeping on a wool mattress ?.. Has anyone had luck adding some padding and /or some springs underneath that might offer some bounce back support? Has anyone tried using pocket coils or innersprings with their wool mattress with success ? How much maintenance is needed for wool? I'm aware it needs to be rotated
I have a frame with wood slats so would be open to the DIY setup but really can't mess around with risky things/ iffy supports when I need my body to be well supported.

Also wondering how people fare on futons with no springs (cotton or wool) if they have pain or back issues?


Open to any ideas or mattresses you have found that are latex free and hold up even if they are not perfectly organic at this point. I am sensitive to chemicals but I also need to be able to sleep and not get injured.
Thanks!
03 Nov 2020 10:09
  • mz
  • mz's Avatar

Do you have a link to the topper? Thanks again


Here's the link.
www.berkeleyergo.com/posturflo-pad

It has 2200 micro-coils removable, then on top of that there's a separate (removable layer) of talalay latex. The who thing is zipped inside an organic cotton cover that is stuffed with wool. Basically it looks like it's the top added layers of the Berkeley Ergonomics Sonata mattress vs. the berkeley Ergonomics BE 3000 mattress but done as a topper. I guess the Sonata cover also has camel hair mixed with wool and the topper only has wool in the cover.

My mattress is 10 years old and it's a European Sleepworks which is actually the Berkeley Ergonomics BE 3000. By adding this topper I pretty much turned it into the Berkeley Ergonomics Sonata.

I'm liking it a lot although it's one of the most expensive toppers I've seen. Feels plush but still has plenty of support. I was having a little bit of shoulder pain (side sleeper). This really seems to help with that.

Definitely digging it but it's about half the price of a quality mattress.
01 Nov 2020 08:07
  • Sensei
  • Sensei's Avatar
Hey mz,

Welcome to the Mattress Underground :) ! Thanks for your question.

I have a 10 year old Berkeley Ergonomics bed from European sleepworks with an adjustable flexible slat base (also made by Berkeley Ergonomics).
We we're looking to replace our mattress soon and was wondering if the slat base we have has an anticipated lifespan. I couldn't see any reference to average life of the slat system (just found that for the bed, around 10 years).

Unfortunately mz, there is no industry standard for "anticipated lifespan" of a mattress base/ foundation, or even for a mattress, each having a separate useful lifecycle based on not only the quality of the materials/ construction used but also based on the consumer's use of the combined mattress and foundation base. According to Berkeley Ergonomics site's product warranty statement, both mattresses and foundations are covered for a 10 year period, likely a good indication of how long they anticipate optimal performance of their products based on normal use (they state on their site: "Mattresses do wear with use-and they should. If the weight of your body doesn't cause the mattress to yield, your body will experience increased pressure in the shoulders and hips. This yielding leads to the mattress' gradual breakdown. Put another way, either the mattress wears out-or you do. A well -built mattress with durable, flexible components will generally last about ten years. Wear will occur gradually without dramatically affecting comfort or function").

Does anyone happen to know if the slat system should be replaced when we get a new mattress? I know we'll have to get one if the mattress we use requires a different type of base but if we can re-use this one it would be nice to save some money.


Are you having any issues with your current Berkeley Ergonomics mattress or simply ready for something new? Have you inspected the slatted base recently to see what kind of shape the slats, shocks and adjustors are in? Is the base still supporting your current mattress correctly without sag? Your final decision truly depends on what new mattress you choose as to your point, some are not recommended for use on an adjustable flexible slatted base. If it works out that your mattress choice is suitable for this type base and the base has no problems in functionality, its perfectly fine to use this one until a replacement is needed. Otherwise, given its age and the fact that you're replacing the mattress anyway, if there is room in your budget to replace both, now would be a good time for that. Looking forward to hearing more of your next steps, mz and hope all goes well with your upcoming mattress shopping journey ;) .

Thanks,
Sensei
31 Oct 2020 10:10
  • mz
  • mz's Avatar
Hi,

I have a 10 year old Berkeley Ergonomics bed from European sleepworks with an adjustable flexible slat base (also made by Berkeley Ergonomics).
We we're looking to replace our mattress soon and was wondering if the slat base we have has an anticipated lifespan. I couldn't see any reference to average life of the slat system (just found that for the bed, around 10 years).

Does anyone happen to know if the slat system should be replaced when we get a new mattress? I know we'll have to get one if the mattress we use requires a different type of base but if we can re-use this one it would be nice to save some money.

Thanks


www.berkeleyergo.com/flexible-slat-system
02 Oct 2020 21:14
  • Venus
  • Venus's Avatar
I'm new to this site. Just joined because of all the helpful info here!
I need to buy an organic latex free mattress. I tried latex (avocado green- way too firm and now European sleepworks Nordic- way too soft / causing pain ) and my body is very unhappy with latex in general.

I've done a bit of research on what's out there and it seems my two options are either 1)spring mattresses with organic cotton/ wool batting such as Naturepedic EOS classic or Holy Lamb OR 2) giving up on spring support and chancing the wool futon alternatives from Shepherd's Dream or other such companies on a platform bed (but from what I've read I'm concerned that this will not offer enough support).

While I really loved the feel of the Naturepedic EOS classic (both with and without their additional wool topper), here is my concern:
I spoke to the owner of a local organic mattress store and he was very honest with me about organic spring mattresses (Royalpedic, Vispring, Clean Bedroom etc which seem to all be very similar because they are all just using the same materials!). He said "I have been selling this type of mattress for a few years (an innerspring topped with cotton and wool batting) and I'm no longer able to stand behind this product because cotton and wool batting compresses over time (a few months or so) and causes big impressions in the top layer making it very uncomfortable '/ unsupportive to continue to sleep on". In other words, their durability is a problem. We discussed (due to my longing to find both a healthy AND durable mattress) whether he might consider making a new mattress down the line and he said he might- and this time he would make it out of innersprings and pre-compressed wool layers. But to his knowledge and as far as I have seen in my research, there isn't anything out there like this yet. He said "it's a very particular niche you are looking for and no one offers this yet".

So given this info, if I'm understanding this correctly, my question is whether it's a bad idea to invest in a naturepedic EOS latex free classic if it's really likely to have the same durability issue as the mattress he was describing since it only has a SUPER thin cotton/ wool top layer (the matress covering!) that is maybe 1/2 inch thick lying on top of cotton encased micro coils (support layer)? Does anyone on this forum know about or have experience with the durability of the naturepedic EOS latex free classic? Does the top layer compress pretty quickly and is this possibly Naturepedic is a little pushy about people buying the pricey wool topper with it because they know there is a compression issue? I am reluctant to buy a mattress that feels good in the store but will leave me sleeping on coils a few months or even a year or two in!
Also, I wonder why is there SO little cushioning in the top layer?
Does anyone know of a mattress that might perform better? Holy Lamb experience? (though this too has the cotton issue)

Honestly, I need a good bed to start sleeping on! So I have a feeling this is my best bet for now, but it seems like paying close to 3K for a matress (then add the topper - close to 4K!) that might not hold up... seems a bit crazy of this as good as it gets?

The only other options I can see would be trying to find someone to make me my own mattresss with innersprings and then my adding my own precompressed wool on top but I don't have any leads on how complicated this might be or who to ask. If anyone has any leads on or experience with this - would love to hear The other option is trying to sleep on a precompressed wool futon/ wool mattress. I would love to hear any feedback from people how have made the switch from spring or foam mattresses to a wool mattress or futon on a wool slat foundation (esp if they have had back or hip pain) and whether they felt it was supportive for them. (I know it's subjective but I'd like to know if anyone has made the shift well!)
Thank you!
12 Aug 2020 22:26
  • mdgail1
  • mdgail1's Avatar
Hi Folks, I hope this is ok. I want to share a list of vegan mattresses I have been compiling in recent months. Thankfully, my favorite mattress maker, didn't disappoint either as they sent me a lovely message today when I messaged them about a need for a vegan mattress with varying layers. Anyway, many of these mattresses are honored manufacturers here on the forum. But please remember to always do your research.

vegan mattresses

UK
veganmattress.co.uk/

U.S.

SleepEZ
Not listed as a vegan mattress but this is an affordable latex mattress with no wool cover. Only organic cotton.
ROMA
sleepez.com/products/roma-latex-mattress/

SleepEZ Vegan Mattress
sleepez.com

Flobeds
3 vegan mattresses
Vegan Select Natural Matress (9")
Vegan Deluxe Natural Mattress (12")
Vegan vZone Natural Mattress (12")
www.flobeds.com/organic-vegan-latex-mattress/

Cozy Pure
Can offer all of their mattresses with a vegan cover. Just choose vegan from the options.
www.cozypure.com/organic-latex-mattresses

Kiss Matress
(parent company is sleepez)
Uses eco friendly memory foam topped by 3 inches of talalay latex
Vegan friendly
kiss mattress
kissmattress.com
I went back and forth between this mattress and the ROMA from sleepez. The ROMA won out.

Avocado Vegan Mattress
www.avocadogreenmattress.com/shop/avocado-vegan-mattress/?variant=twin

Joybed LXC
joybeds.com/lxc-natural-mattress.html

EarthSake Vegan Hemp Mattress
earthsake.com/store/HempMattress.html

420 bed
Hemp and memory foam mattress
the420bed.com/shop/mattress/

Live and Sleep
Eco Friendly Memory Foam Mattress
liveandsleep.com/

Goodnight Naturals
7 inch vegan mattress (latex)
10 inch vegan mattress (latex)
goodnightnaturals.com/natural-latex-mattresses.html

Amerisleep
Has 3 or 4 eco friendly memory foam mattresses that are vegan friendly
amerisleep.com/as5.html

Luxi
Eco Friendly Memory Foam (not all memory foam is eco friendly)
luxiagi.com/

White Lotus
whitelotushome.com/mattresses/vegan-mattresses/

Nectar Mattress
Uses tencel and plant-based polyurethane
nectarsleep.com

Naturepedic Vegan Mattress
sleepworksny.com/product/eos-vegan-trilux-by-naturepedic/

Urth Sleep Green Mattress
urthsleepgreenmattress.com/

Harvest Green Original Vegan Mattress
harvestgreenmattress.com/products/original-vegan

Essentia Mattress
Vegan mattress with memory foam made from rubber tree sap
myessentia.com/

Note from SleepEZ:
On 8/12/20 8:33 PM, Sleep EZ Support wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Thank you so much for coming back to Sleep EZ! We actually do have vegan
> mattresses, you would just order our organic line but request in the
> "comments" section at checkout that you want us to send it with our organic
> cotton 4-way stretch cover instead of the cotton & wool cover. There's no
> extra charge for that, you just want to make sure the top layer is not split
> because if your top layer is split you will feel the split through the
> thinner cover.
>
> If I can be of any additional assistance, please do let me know.
>
> Thank you so much and have a great day!
>
> Rodger Hermes
> SleepEZ
> 623-299-9624
03 Sep 2019 13:23
  • bobkbed
  • bobkbed's Avatar
Hey aashmore,

If you're up for a little handyman project and have a lumberyard nearby, consider this, which I just did a couple of weeks ago with my queen bed frame (see photos).

The center support is a 1 x 4 and the legs are 2 x 3s. Sleepworks, a reputable local store, said pine would be fine, but I chose Douglas fir, which is stronger.

To determine the leg height, measure from the floor to the top of the side rails on which the slats sit, and subtract the thickness of the center support board (3/4" for a 1 x 4).

If your floor is uneven, consider adding threaded furniture glides screwed into T-nuts on the bottom of the legs (cutting the legs shorter accordingly). I didn't do this, but saw it in these center supports sold in the UK:

www.bedslats.co.uk/universal-bed-centre-support-rail-kit-with-wooden-feet-for-flat-slats

For additional slats (which I described in a few posts back), I used oak, since the original slats were oak. If I could go back, I'd use fir or poplar, which are much cheaper and sufficiently strong, and I would have used 1 x 4s instead of cutting them to the same 2 1/8" as the original ones.

Since I don't have a table saw, I paid the lumberyard to do the cutting. I've heard that places like Home Depot don't do accurate cuts, but I haven't tried them myself.

I attached each leg with a single 2 1/2" star-head deck screw*. Sleepworks recommended screwing the center support to two or three of the slats, but I haven't done that yet and might not ever do it unless the center support moves.

My new mattress (a 10" latex mattress from Foam Sweet Foam) has been on it for four nights so far, and all is well.

Hope this helps.

Bob

* Originally I used cheap wood screws, but a friend turned me on to good-quality star-head deck screws. Even though I'd drilled pilot holes, the heads of the cheap screws stripped. The star head screws were fantastic - no slipping or stripping.

23 Aug 2019 23:16
  • bobkbed
  • bobkbed's Avatar
Thanks for the reply, Phoenix. You did indeed confuse me a bit, but that just goes with the territory. The physics of mattresses and their interactions with bodies is inherently complex.

I was curious why they (Sleepworks) use 2" comfort layers because it seems common to see 3". Many/most of the DIY vendors do this, as does Nest and Foamorder.com.

Bay Bed uses a 1" Talalay comfort layer over 6" of Dunlop, and when I asked why, they said only that they've found 7" of foam to be sufficient.

I'm 5' 11", about 195 lbs (BMI 27). I sleep mostly on my stomach, but a bit on my side.

I've been sleeping for 18 years (!) on an Ikea single-layer all-latex mattress, which in another thread you said was probably 14 cm thick (almost certainly Dunlop). Though I probably should have replaced it at least three years ago, I think it's still safe to say I like medium to medium-firm mattresses (though I realize those terms are vague).

I ended up ordering from Foam Sweet Foam. Given my info, they recommended this (all layers 3"):

top - Medium Talalay (ILD: 27, Density: 5.0)
middle - Firm Dunlop (ILD: 32, Density: 5.3)
bottom - X-firm Dunlop (ILD: 38, Density: 5.9)

This is what I was already thinking I'd like to try, but nobody in the Bay Area has it.

After reading your post, I'm even more concerned than I already was that the Talalay comfort layer might too soft. However, FSF has a good comfort-exchange policy. One mitigating factor is that the Sleepworks had Talalay support layers, while the FSF will have Dunlop (though I seem to recall reading here that in support layers at higher densities, the difference between Talalay and Dunlop might not be very noticeable - correct?).

On their web site, FSF says "We do not get many people exchanging layers, but when we do, they usually send back a Talalay layer saying it is too soft and too bouncy." They theorize that this is because they're accustomed to sleeping on a packed-down old mattress.

That was exactly my initial reaction to the Talalay comfort layers at Sleepworks - too soft and bouncy, both in all-latex mattresses and in hybrids.

However, I also found that what they say about people getting accustomed to packed-down old mattresses is true. When I first tried the "firm" at Sleepworks (2" N7 Talalay over 6" N8) , I liked it and felt that the "medium" (N6/N8) was too soft. About two weeks later, having tested other mattresses in the interim, I tried them again. While "medium" still seemed a bit soft, the "firm" was definitely too firm. I tried again a few days later, with the same results.

Other data points: At Foam Store of Marin, I tried these two (all layers are 3" of organic Dunlop):

"Firm"
Top: Firm - N31
Middle: X-Firm - N36
Bottom: X-Firm - N36

"Medium"
Top: Medium - N28
Middle: Firm - N31
Bottom: X-Firm - N36

"Firm" was too firm when on my side - too much pressure on my shoulder. "Medium" didn't feel quite right on my shoulders either, but I imagined it was because I was sinking in too far. I ended up ruling these out because 1) I wanted to try Talalay on top and 2) organic latex is out of my price range.

If you have any thoughts on all of this, I'd love to hear 'em!

Bob
17 Aug 2019 09:01
  • bobkbed
  • bobkbed's Avatar
Regarding how much surface area of a latex mattress is supported by slats:

Foamorder.com (Foam Store of Marin) said it should be at least 50 percent

CBH said it should be MORE than 50 percent, but didn't specify a minimum.

European Sleepworks said percentage doesn't matter as long as slats are 2.5 - 3.5" apart.

With my four new slats (34" total), the spacing is now 2.5", but the slats are only 2 - 2 1/8" wide. So coverage is 42 percent.

These are all reputable sources, so I'm confused.

Any other manufacturers want to chime in here?
13 Aug 2019 15:26
  • bobkbed
  • bobkbed's Avatar
I'm shopping for a new latex mattress for the first time since 2001.

Here at TMU and at European Sleepworks in Berkeley, I learned that there are two problems with my existing Queen size bed frame (also purchased in 2001 - see photo).

1. It needs a center support. Per Sleepworks' recommenation, I bought a 1x4 fir board and attached three legs made of 2 x 3 fir.

After purchasing the frame in 2001, I called the manufacturer, Vermont Tubbs. The guy at the factory said that a center support was not necessary, but could be easily added later. He was wrong. (I'm curious how they implemented a center support, but sadly they went out of business in 2003, after more than 170 years.)

2. The slats are too far apart - about 4 to 4 1/2".

Surprisingly, the slats are, like the frame, solid oak. For consistency, I bought an oak board, had it cut into six more slats the same size as the existing ones (60 1/4" x 2 1/8" x 3/4"), and sanded them.

With all 18 slats evenly spaced at 3", this will provide 50 percent coverage (which was recommended by the Foam Store of Marin).

But here's the [possible] problem: After 18 years of use without a center support, the old slats have bowed, as shown in the attached photos.

In "Slats 1", I pushed them together at the center. In "Slats 2", I pushed them together at the left end. Clearly, some are much more bowed than others.

I actually noticed this a week or so ago and flipped them over. I noticed the difference immediately when I slept - the mattress sagged less.

A few days later, I added the center support. Since then, I've been waking up with a sore back, and it's clear that the mattress needs to be replaced now (or 3-5 years ago :-)).

My theory is that when I flipped the slats, my body weight (I'm 195 lbs, 5'11") not only counteracted the upward bowing, but maybe even bowed them slightly downward again. To some degree, this masked the fact that the mattress (an old Ikea all-latex mattress, one layer, 5 or 6 inches thick) is worn out (compacted).

Adding the center support prevents the downward bowing, making it more obvious that the mattress is completely shot.

So I'm wondering:

Will the bowing be an issue with a new mattress (which I expect will be 9" of latex)?

Should I put the most-bent slats in a particular location (like in the middle or the ends)?

I could certainly buy a new set of slats if necessary, but I hope to use what I have.

EDIT: After posting this, I thought of a crude way to asses the stiffness of the slats. I used a 31-lb. PA speaker (I'm a musician) to hold down one end of the slat and measured how high the other end was above the floor. The most bent one I've measured so far is 1.5"
Then I placed two 1-gallon jugs of water (about 16 lbs total) on the raised end. That brought it down to the floor. I'm guessing that between a latex mattress and my body weight, I have nothing to worry about.

But I'd still love to hear any expert opinions.

By the way, the slats at either end are prevented from sliding towards the center by dowel stops set into the rail (visible in the photo if you look closely). The center slat is secured by a long rivet that you drop through a hole in the slat into a hole in the rail. I mention this because when I explained it to a salesman, he said he hadn't seen this type of design before and thought it was clever.

Thanks!

Bob

30 Apr 2018 02:18
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi lkirik2000.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :)

I have tested an old version Pure Talalay Bliss mattress today (Balance) and i really liked it. I was told that this model has been discontinued, however, I am considering to buy separate layers and building my own mattress.


I can save you the trouble of finding out the layering of this mattress as I found it in some old records for the PTB Ballance (9")
  • 2" ActiveFUSION Fast Natural Talalay; This is blended Talalay latex with phase change gel added to help with temperature regulation. It is a high quality and durable material.
  • 7" Bonded Foam/Latex: This is a blend of polyfoam and latex similar to carpet padding where pieces of each material are compressed and bonded together. it is also a very durable material.
    I am not very sure what the ILD is but you may want to call Sleepworks here to see if they have the complete specs and then hand this over to Ken to help you approximate the feel you are looking for.

This would be what is called a latex hybrid which is a combination of latex in the comfort layers and a polyfoam support layer (or in this case a type or latex/polyfoam blend). This mattress was on the lower end of their line because it only has 2" of latex but all the materials were good quality and durable. The latex comfort layer may have been a little on the soft side (I am not very sure but I believe that it was 19 ILD) but it was also thin so that the "feel" of the firmer support layer did come through enough.

You can also read more about a polyfoam/latex hybrid and how it compares to an all latex mattress in post #2 here . In the case of the PLB, the support layer is higher quality than "regular" polyfoam so the difference may not be as much although how each performs and feels to you would be my primary consideration.

You are on the right track by seeking guidance from an experienced manufacturer such as Arizona Premium. Ken is very knowledgeable and extremely experienced to best approximate a mattress feel based on all the specs and your personal needs and preferences you may provide.

I know the feeling of finding something just right and striving to replicate it ... good luck with the mattress matching.

Phoenix
02 Mar 2018 15:58
  • Sleep EZ
  • Sleep EZ's Avatar
Hello Mgd150

Thank you for jumpin in! The great thing about the Mattress Underground is that you can jump right into any thread and are very welcome to do so!

There is a company called Savvy Rest that offers latex mattresses and toppers. They are located in or around many major cities in the U.S. Here is a list of stores near or in New York City that carries the Savvy Rest latex:

Bliss Sleep
103 Haygrounds Road Water Mill New York 11976 (631) 885-0075

Green Conscience
33 Church Street Saratoga Springs New York 12866 (518) 306-5196 | Savvy Rest
Financing Partner

Home Green Home
215 East State Street Ithaca New York 14850 (607) 319-4159

Plaza Furniture
121 Front Street Massapequa Park New York 11762 (516) 799-3500

Sleepworks
5068 Sunrise Highway Massapequa Park New York 11762 (516) 804-0123 | Savvy Rest

Financing Partner
The Clean Bedroom
230 Fifth Avenue, Lobby 10 New York New York 10001 (212) 764-3232

Keep in mind that there are also companies such as SleepEZ and the Latex Mattress Factory that offers a 30-day trial period for latex toppers. They ship all over the United States, and do not charge for shipping the topper to you. You can find both companies here:
www.sleepez.com
www.latexmattressfactory.com

Let us know if you have any further questions! Happy hunting!
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