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Searched for: ktt
07 Nov 2021 19:39
  • SleepyInSeattle
  • SleepyInSeattle's Avatar
Hello,

as someone with GERD (I'm both a side and back sleeper), I appreciate the various GERD posts and solutions I've read on this forum, such as the ones here and here. My current solution is a traditional frame and mattress, with a DIY rigid foam wedge running the length of the mattress, elevating the head about 4 inches more than the feet. That works great for me, but it's finally time for a new mattress, and I've expanded my search to include adjustable beds.

Adjustable beds that have a no-bend incline feature (no bending in the torso, allowing for better side-sleeping) seem tempting, but bases with that feature seem to limit the other options quite a bit. For example, it is hard to find a base with head tilt, lumbar support, and no-bend incline all in the same model.

I do like what I've read about the L&P Prodigy Comfort Elite, and feel it would work great for me if I could also get a fixed 4 inches or so of incline. Is it reasonable to:
1 - incline the entire L&P CE adjustable base by having 4" longer head legs than foot legs?
2 - put something like the latex KTT 80inch full-body wedge on top of or under the mattress, to incline the entire mattress but otherwise preserve the adjustable base features?
3 - put the L&P CE zero clearance base on a inclined support base/frame?

I suspect #1 and #3 are going to void warrantees.
I'm guessing #2 would work ok, although pre-programed positions like zero-G might feel slightly off. I've also read that the full-body wedges sometimes slide out of position under the mattress on regular beds, something that may be more problematic with an adjustable bed.

Any thoughts on or experiences with the above options, or ideas regarding an alternative?

Thanks!

(note: edited to be specific to L&P CE base, in case there was any confusion)
07 Sep 2021 14:03
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Fallguy007.

Of course, as you might guess the amount of the “depression of springs” depends on the Latex ILD on top of the coils. The higher the ILD (directly proportional with ILD in the case of latex) the higher the depression. One other factor is the surface area, the weight of the latex layer(s) is evenly distributed over the entire surface of the coil unit which would result in lower pressure per spring and minimal depression for a certain latex density. (e.g. 6” L&P Q Edge Elite Bolsa has 1041 coils in a Queen size and each spring will share the load)

Instead of putting my science hat on, I called Ken at Arizona Premium who sells the Quantum Edge Elite Bolsa to ask about the amount of spring depression under the weight of several latex layers. He said that when they place a 3” medium firmness (28 ILD) Talalay topper they get almost no visible depression of the spring unit. In his experience, even multiple layers of higher density latex will not depress the spring unit more than 1/2“(if that much).

Generally, all the layers of a mattress compress simultaneously not sequentially and they will each compress to different percentages of their thickness depending on their position on the mattress, the firmness of each layer, the compression modulus of the material, the thickness of each layer, and the compression force that they are exposed to (which depends on the weight of the part of the body in contact with the mattress and the surface area that is bearing that weight which is constantly changing as you sink into the mattress move or change sleep positions). Springs have a linear response to compression as opposed to latex that has a non-linear response to compression. Latex becomes firmer with compression increase and has the ability to allow for increased compression (allowing it to better conform to various body shapes and weights) as a result of the material’s open cell structure where each cell behaves like a micro-spring. Every layer of a mattress affects and is affected by every other layer in the mattress to different degrees. If you scroll down a bit more on this page you can read the Talalay Comfort Zone article by Ph.D. John Lean explains it in more detail, including this a picture of the linear spring response vs non-linear latex response with force applied.

Hope this helps with your decision
Phoenix
17 May 2021 16:48
  • Spoonman01
  • Spoonman01's Avatar
Here’s the email I received from Nancy last week…

“Thanks for the inquiry.
KTT closed its fabricating facility last June.
We no longer sell toppers.
I now sell 6” cores, cut to any thickness,- but 6 inches must be purchased.
Lead time is 5-6 weeks. (crazy, right?) But the lead times are getting better—used to be 8 weeks!)

Regards,
Nancy J. Coffey

CEO, KTT Enterprises
32 Bunker Hill Circle, Shelton, CT
Phone: 203.513.8580
www.kttenterprises.com
10 Mar 2020 10:32
  • happycat8
  • happycat8's Avatar
Let me dispel the myth that Talalay is Softer than Dunlop.

The indenter used in ILD testing has the surface area of 50 square inches. And it needs the force of 200,000 Newton to compress 4'' talalay in the above graph to 40%. That means that 200 lb person would need to apply all his/her weight over the surface area of 2.36 square feet to really notice the difference between Talalay vs Dunlop. Average body surface area of 200 lb person is about 21 square feet. So one needs to apply all the weight on about 11% of your body. Even sleeping on the side, this is impossible.

Talalay sellers always say that it is softer than Dunlop, while Dunlop sellers say this is not true: sleeponlatex.com/blogs/news/7845413-dunlop-vs-talalay-latex-foam . According to physics, Dunlop sellers are correct. There might be a difference in feel, but not firmness. In fact, according to the above graphs (which comes from Talalay seller KTT Enterprises) dunlop will be about the same or slightly softer for most people.
10 Mar 2020 09:45
  • happycat8
  • happycat8's Avatar
Here is a response curve of Dunlop vs Talalay. Dunlop is softer until about 30-35% compression. I cannot imagine children compressing even soft one by more than 35%. For adults, yes, Dunlop firms up much faster around 50%, but I don't know how heavy one has to be to compress 6 inch latex by 40%.

Attachment not found

.

Here is the article, by the way: www.kttenterprises.com/technical-blog.html
06 Feb 2019 18:53
  • Always Learning
  • Always Learning's Avatar
Greetings! Thank you for your quick and very helpful response. Although I was hoping to get natural Talalay in one piece, I understand that it's not possible. I wanted to avoid the gluing because of concerns that the pieces will separate over time. My plan is to replace the entire bed in 2-3 years so I'm not as concerned with gluing. Also, the ILD info you provided is extremely helpful.

I have just been in contact with KTT who offer "a range of blended Talalay foam". Although I will inquire with KTT, does the blend refer to a rubber mix formula or a combination of different layers in the topper?

What I'm happy about is although KTT is not not a retail store, they invited me to come and try out the toppers (or foam layers) to create the best fit for me.

I appreciate the information you've provided as well as the resources you share. Thanks again!
02 Feb 2019 20:30
  • Always Learning
  • Always Learning's Avatar
Greetings and thank you for the wealth of information provided here! Who would think there's SO much to know about mattresses and toppers! I have a very firm mattress that is in good condition but is now feeling less comfortable to me. My research here leads me to try a latex topper; I think I want a Talalay one. I'm a side and back sleeper with a " big differential between my waist and hips" so I need the sink in action. However, my bed is queen sized width and 90 inches long so it will have to be custom made. I would like the topper to be one piece as opposed to 2 pieces glued together. I see that KTT Enterprises is a manufacturer you recommend who can manufacture any size and I plan to contact them for information. Assuming that my custom size topper won't be returnable, I want to try out toppers or latex comfort layers before I order one. I live in New York City. Can you suggest places or ways to try comfort layers? Are there other recommended topper manufacturers you can offer? Thanks again!
17 Sep 2018 11:59
  • killowatt59
  • killowatt59's Avatar

I just joined and do not see a "new topic" button to add a new topic for the forum. Can someone help with this?


I've been a member on here for awhile and when I first joined you could create a new topic, but recently that option has been taken away. I emailed PHOENIX about it and was told you have to "ask an expert" or search through old topics and reply under those. Not sure if their server memory was overloaded or if they wanted to force people to "ask an expert" for whatever reason.
03 Mar 2018 11:23
  • NeonCat
  • NeonCat's Avatar
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I also cannot figure out how to start a new topic. Foam Sweet Foam is not one of the "Talk To The Expert" choices, and I have already talked with them by phone. Here is my issue/question:
We are almost to the end of the 120 day return window on our Foam Sweet Foam talalay mattress. Initially the mattress felt too firm for me. Our original configuration was:
XF, F, M, S on my side and XF, F, M, M on my husband's side. At the suggestion of FSF, we have tried unzipping the encasement and moving around layers. In addition, we added a topper and purchased an additional blended talalay layer (ILD 14) from KTT Enterprises. My husband has been fine with every configuration, so I will focus on my side only. I am 5' and weigh apx. 110 pounds, relatively proportionate. I have scoliosis, but it is not extreme. The most recent configuartion on my side of the bed is XF, M, N2, N1, with the 14 ILD topper over the encasement (the 14 blended is inside the topper, which originally had a higher ILD). We have a St Dormier cover over the FSF encasement, but the topper rests on top of that. The topper cover is a stretchy one - Pure Talalay Bliss. I have had difficulty sleeping since we've received our new bed, and continue to "toss and turn," have trouble falling asleep, and wake with pain, especially in my back, shoulders and neck. Prior to our latex journey, we slept on a soft-sided waterbed. We visited some of the bricks and mortar mattress stores in our area prior to purchasing from FSF, and the consensus seemed to be that latex would be our best bet when transitioning from a waterbed. We were disinclined to buy another waterbed as we are aging and felt a more traditional mattress would be easier for us to deal with. However, we must now decide whether to return the bed to FSM and get something else (perhaps a waterbed), or continue trying to manipulate the latex layers to find that almost-perfect fit. I lurked and spent hours reading here on TMU prior to purchasing a bed, feeling I did not need to actually post an inquiry. Now I am at a place where I need expert advice! Thanks so much.
18 Nov 2017 10:40
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi mattressjunkie,

Mattresses.net has been very understanding and is offering me the option of exchanging my Radium core for the Global Talalay in a 36.


I’m glad that mattreses.net is being very accommodating to you.

I "firmly" believe my core is softer than what I know a 36 to feel like. Unfortunately, there is the trouble and expense of doing so.


I see what you did there with that pun. :lol: If you’ve had another product in the past using a 36 ILD Talalay core and this current core feels softer to you, I don’t know that it is due to any shipping methods, but could be due to the ILD range that we discussed previously actually being lower than 36, or comparing disparate brands/blends, or your memory of what the old core felt like. Regardless, in the end you’re desiring something that feels a bit firmer.

Now, I did talk to KTT Enterprises about their products and was told by Mr. Coffey that he thinks the problem with my core could be loss of ILD due to the shrink wrapping process that latex is subject to for shipping purposes. I'm now leery of this shrinking business. Do you agree that shrink-wrapping can permanently affect ILD for talalay latex?


While I appreciate those thoughts and respect their knowledge at KTT, I personally don’t have a concern with the usual shipping method for latex and the amount of time it is normally compressed, based upon the conversations I’ve had with manufacturers using latex in their products for decades. But if compressed for extremely long periods of time, there certainly can be damage to any foam, even latex.

Mr. Coffey said his shipping prices are much higher because he doesn't use the shrink-wrap process. A core would be sent boxed and wrapped without this method.


Yes, this would most definitely be the case, as shipping a product actual size would be more expensive than something that was rolled or compressed for shipment.

Phoenix
17 Nov 2017 16:24
  • matressjunkie
  • matressjunkie's Avatar
Hi Phoenix,

Mattresses.net has been very understanding and is offering me the option of exchanging my Radium core for the Global Talalay in a 36. I "firmly" believe my core is softer than what I know a 36 to feel like. Unfortunately, there is the trouble and expense of doing so.

Now, I did talk to KTT Enterprises about their products and was told by Mr. Coffey that he thinks the problem with my core could be loss of ILD due to the shrink wrapping process that latex is subject to for shipping purposes. In other words, it may have started out a 36 and softened because of the compression. I would have to shrink my core to get it back to mattresses.net, by the way and then receive a Global 36 sent shrink wrapped, as well.

I'm now leery of this shrinking business. Do you agree that shrink-wrapping can permanently affect ILD for talalay latex?

Mr. Coffey said his shipping prices are much higher because he doesn't use the shrink-wrap process. A core would be sent boxed and wrapped without this method.
15 Nov 2017 21:00
  • AJohnson
  • AJohnson's Avatar
I personally tried the Tuft & Needle and also wasn't impressed with it either. The custom foam they use is sinky, but doesn't mold to my body enough for support. it felt like the depression caused by my butt and back pushed the foam down and left my lumbar area unsupported.

i.imgur.com/vNrWG9U.png

that drawing is exaggerated but that's how it kind of felt for me.

you could certainly add some memory foam like you did to help fill in and support those gaps, but 2" of memory foam on top of 3" of T&N's sinky foam could definitely cause some uncomfortable hammocking that could hurt your back, which is what I suspect happened.

since you like the memory foam, I'd hold on to the 2" 5lb mem foam topper (and see if you can return the 3lb one and get a refund), and put it on top of a 2" latex topper (I'm guessing 24, or 28 ILD, depending on your BMI and firmness preference), and then put those both on top of a 6" polyfoam core .

if you don't want to mess with any of that though, all the mattresses Phoenix posted all look like good options. but if you're on a tighter budget (I was, that's why I tried the Tuft & Needle) also look into the Addable mattress . It has 2" of 4lb memory foam on top of 2" of 20 ILD 1.8lb transition foam and a high quality 6" 2.0lb core. but if you want to get as close to your old tempurpedic as possible, it'd probably be the Christeli or the Novosbed. The Christeli in particular has a special zoned support core, which is interesting.

(hey phoenix, you should add the Christeli to the bed in a box pinned megathread's list)
12 Sep 2017 09:37
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Apeiron,

For clarification, by "they" I meant that from the places I had been looking at, the ones that clearly sold Talalay Global tended to cost more, which I attributed to the supplier (Talalay Global) rather than the retailer ( e.g. KTT enterprises). So by "they" I was intending to refer to Talalay Global.


Thanks for that clarification, as I thought you were referencing a retailer of the foam component layers, such as KTT that you mentioned. I'm not familiar with the cost of production or pricing structure used by either Radium or TG (that's not something they would normally share with me, being someone outside of the company itself), so I can't provide much more "color" on your original question - sorry about that.

In terms of cost overall, synthetic or blended Dunlop is the least expensive (less natural rubber lowers the cost of the material), Natural Dunlop and blended Talalay are roughly equivalent, and Natural Talalay and organic Dunlop are generally the most expensive to produce. There are some variations here because of variations in methods of production and variations of NR latex used between different foam producers and other factors but in general this is roughly accurate. However, I don't have any data on the costs of production for similar materials from different manufacturers.

I'm looking forward to learning of your progress!

Phoenix
12 Sep 2017 04:14
  • Apeiron
  • Apeiron's Avatar
Hi Phoenix,

Thanks, I'll consider Radium as well then and see how things go. I'll update as to how things are progressing.

For clarification, by "they" I meant that from the places I had been looking at, the ones that clearly sold Talalay Global tended to cost more, which I attributed to the supplier (Talalay Global) rather than the retailer ( e.g. KTT enterprises). So by "they" I was intending to refer to Talalay Global.

Thanks,
Apeiron
10 Sep 2017 19:11
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Apeiron,

Thank you very much for your reply! As much as my heart desires to go down the rabbit hole, I believe and appreciate that you are correct in asserting a limitation.


You’re very welcome! There’s nothing wrong with acquiring technical details, but my concern is always becoming a bit too esoteric in my explanations, as I would never recommend that someone try to predict the comfort they will feel on a mattress strictly from specifications as a replacement for actual testing, unless the was no other option available.

This basically means that I don't have much choice besides additional testing and quite frankly ballparking it a little. I'll be sure to purchase a layer with a return policy then. Based on that new information, my inclination is actually to start somewhere around 24-26 ILD and decide if I need to go up or down from there, since the 15-20 ILD piece could have been on either end of the range and I won't know until I try it.


I think you have a good starting point there, and it all seems quite logical.

this also is consistent with and explains why it seemed like many people I've read about felt the N2 ILD to be reasonably substantial, but when I laid on Savvy Rest's soft I felt I was virtually going straight through it.


Just for others who might be reading through this thread, N2 isn’t what you tested on the Savvy Rest mattress upper layer. N2 is the Talalay Global 20-24 ILD natural Talalay latex, and the Savvy Rest “soft” layer that you tested is from Radium in the 15-20 ILD range, which they call N5.

I was mainly asking if N3 is a common or uncommon choice was mainly because something just didn't seem to add up somewhere between the things that I've tried, and I would've expected it to be more popular if it was just in the dead middle between the two layers I'd tried.


Softer upper comfort layers tend to be more popular (in traditional progressive designs), but using a slightly firmer upper layer is seen (what I term a dominant layer design) when people prefer a bit more of a “crisp” or substantial upper comfort layer.

Just for clarification's sake, when you and others talk about "average sleeper" are our BMIs considered "average" or above average or..?


A BMI of 30 or so would begin to be what I consider in a bit of a higher range.

My basic plan is: Ask KTT enterprises nicely and see if they can find me a 3" layer in something around 24-26ILD range, and speak with them a bit to see if they have any suggestions. Buy the 3" layer. Try it out.


KTT is very knowledgeable about the Talalay Global latex they offer, and I would not hesitate to place a phone call with them for their advice.

Thank you very much for taking your time to help people.


You’re welcome, and I think you’re heading in a good direction and I’ll be interested to learn of your progress.

Phoenix
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