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Searched for: Talalay GL slow
01 Jan 2022 10:25
  • Mattrebuild
  • Mattrebuild's Avatar
Sounds like you are making some progress so I'll give a few comments that should be helpful in achieving what you want. First its important that the foam on each side is separate except for the top layer (this can be split too but many prefer the feel of a single layer if you spend time together in the middle of the mattress). The reason you want these split is because once you have found a setup one partner likes this allows you to make changes to one side without affecting the other. Second you always want to keep the mattress design as simple as possible (fewer layers, less complex, etc). This makes things easier to troubleshoot and usually cheaper to maintain when things need replacement later.

Your mattress is getting quite tall now and the majority (9") of it of it is basically comfort layers. I suspect the issue you are running into is that your shoulders are not able to travel into the mattress enough for you to get comfortable since your body is traveling through the comfort layers too. Dunlop and talalay are both great bedding materials but its important to note that they have very different characteristics. In your case travel is an issue and this is a situation where talalay excels (likely why your partner also had back pain with the initial setup).

Normally I would have suggested something like this (all talalay):
3" Soft (19 ILD)
3" Med (28 ILD)
3" Firm (32 ILD)
3" XFirm (36 ILD)

Then if you didn't have enough travel you could zone the medium layer and zone the medium layer in your shoulder area with either 14 or 19 ILD to allow more travel. You could try to adjust what you have by getting rid of the 19ILD dunlop and adding a 28ILD talalay below the 19ILD talalay and then zone your shoulder area as suggested above. I do have a concern that the 38ILD dunlop layer is very stiff for your needs but you could start with that and then slowly replace support layers to help with travel in the shoulder area.
22 Jun 2021 18:15
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar

Doing any due diligence based on a “realistic expectation” is the best safeguard to ensure you get the product quality and longevity you “signed up for”. I am glad to see more and more people pushing back against misinformation, lack of transparency, and undue marketing.

My question is - what kind of impressions are normal with latex? I understand that softer densities will wear more rapidly, and that Talalay will also wear more rapidly, but I'm just trying to get a general idea because I don't want to base my purchase decision on the warranty if it is unlikely that even a half inch or an inch of body impression will form over the next 10 years. In my experience, any impression of even more than 1/2 inch creates discomfort (for me).

While you have great durability questions you also have a bit of unusual sensitivity to being misaligned and your discomfort threshold when sagging is past 1/2”. FIY ½” is considered normal wear in the mattress world and usually this does not affect the performance or comfort for most sleepers.

While much less than other foams, latex too will soften and compress over time especially in the areas of most mechanical stress and/or if they are not properly protected against UV exposure and ozone exposure. Typically, latex is estimated to have a “virtual” or even visible sag between 12%-20% and the fatigue is dependent on many factors such as the latex type (NR, SBR/Synthetic, or Blend of the two), the process used for fabricating it (Talalay vs Dunlop), temperature, humidity, mechanical stress. Most of the foam softening takes place within the first 4-5 years and the layers closest to the body are those that would most fatigued and in time can lead to the sleeper bottoming out to the layers below.

You are correct that softness (lower ILDs) is also a durability factor and softer materials (which are much more common with blended Talalay) will be less durable than firmer materials of the same type. In the lower ILD's in an apples-to-apples comparison ... blended Talalay will be more durable than all-natural Talalay (see post #2 here ). In the lower ILD's the natural elasticity of the Talalay and its thinner cell walls along with the greater inconsistency of natural latex works against it and it will be less durable than a blend. This will start to even out as the ILD's get higher.

With Dunlop, it's the other way around because of its higher density, greater firmness in most cases, and the properties of natural latex itself (see post #2 here for a comparison between natural latex and synthetic latex). While overall natural latex has many desirable qualities... synthetic (SBR) latex is less elastic but it does have some advantages over natural in some areas that can add to its properties and it will last longer than natural rubber.

Overall (balancing all the competing factors that I'm aware of) ... I would rate 100% NR Talalay, blended Talalay, and 100% NR Dunlop about equal in terms of durability in the higher ILD's with a slight edge to Dunlop and blended Talalay as the ILD goes down ... but how long each lasts would depend more on the use it was put to than on which type of latex in most cases. The difference in real life is likely to be rather insignificant in the higher ILDs. This being said I would focus more on your comfort and how each feels to make my choice. Then I would focus on finding solutions and a good routine and set up to slow down any foam softening that may occur.

Also, the layers that are never moved around and given a chance to “rest” will suffer more fatigue. The same layer deeper in the mattress will fatigue less, this is why some rotating and moving layers around are often recommended. For this, you may wish to consider a latex mattress that has two comfort layers of the same firmness instead of a solid one, or a flippable product.

Given your special sensitivity to being even slightly misaligned, you may want to consider purchasing a customizable mattress with a zippered cover so that you can rotate and over time replace the uppermost layer of fatigued rubber when you reach your discomfort threshold. I’d also make sure that the support system under your mattress is solid and non-flexing as unlike other support layers such as springs, latex will transfer some of the exerting force to the supporting system.

At a quick glance, I can see that Spindle mattress one of our valued Trusted members has a warranty that covers 3/4” compression for their latex mattress that you may want to consider. You may wish to peruse our directory for more options.

I hope this information is a good springboard to finding a good solution as you move forward.

27 Mar 2021 11:53
  • Sensei
  • Sensei's Avatar
Hey patrowdy,

Welcome to the Mattress Underground :) ! Thanks for your question.

Hello TMU! I'm opening up some space in my room with a loft-style slatted bed frame and i'm shopping for a budget full-size mattress. I know that testing is a crucial part of the process and that shopping on theory alone is not the best strategy, but i'm living in Toronto under fairly strict quarantine and I don't have easy access to open mattress retailers. I've done a good bit of reading here and I'm aware of the basic principles, but I want to make sure I'm on target to avoid returns/frustrations.

Budget: My budget is in the $400-500CAD range. I can push it a little if it will make a huge difference, but I wont be on this mattress for longer than 2 years. I know that's low, but that's life for a quarantined musician!

Sleep Profile: I am 27, 5'11" and 135lbs (~19 BMI), so I am sadly built without an internal comfort layer

I'm a combo sleeper - 60% left side, 20% right side, 20% back. I occasionally experience hip soreness after long sleeps on one side, but no other complaints. I sleep long and hot, usually 9h per night with a fan blowing all year round.

Current Mattress: I'm sleeping on a a 10" queen innerspring mystery mattress from sleep country. On top I use a a duck & goose co mattress topper which is actually full size, but it fits the queen.

You have done your homework well, patrowdy :) ! Thanks for the hard work and preparation that you've put into your post, and indeed, you have been doing a good bit of TMU reading and have a good grasp of the basics. Thanks too for including your personal stats, budget, and details on your current "mystery mattress". These help us see where you are coming from in terms of your comfort preferences and what mattresses may make good candidates for you. As you know from your research that TMU does not make recommendations outside of our strictly vetted Trusted Member program , but we will help you understand a mattress's durability potential based on component specs when available.

Here's some mattresses within my budget range:
IKEA - Matrand, $379
7.25" - 2" 3.1lb memory foam), 5" 1.7lb polyfoam. 1 year return policy.
JUNO (goodmorning), $349
2" cooling gel memory foam, 6" support foam. 120 night trial.
DOZY - Davisville, $500
2" gel memory foam, 3" transition layer, 5" poly foam core. No returns, only modifications/exchanges.

Mattresses a little out of my budget:
SILK & SNOW, $675
2" 4lb gel memory foam, 2" 1.8lb transition, 6" 1.8lb base
DOUGLAS (goodmorning), $679
2" cooling gel foam (tested against 4lb memory foam.), 2" "elastex" foam, 6" support foam.

Great work on assembling your contenders, patrowdy :) ! As these are all similar in design, let's focus on their commonalities: memory foam comfort layers, polyfoam support core. This combination in an all-foam mattress will feel and support in a much different way than your queen innerspring mattress/ duck & goose mattress topper. Do you have access to COVID-safe showrooms for trying similar versions of these mattresses? Once you identify memory foam as a candidate, we can look further into the models you have tested.

I've also been browsing through the list of GTA factory direct manufacturers that Phoenix so generously put together in 2011. Springmade, Binda Bros, and Fantastic Sleep Shop all seem like options worth looking into. I'm also intrigued by Foamite, specifically the Ecocell Blue Mattress , but I am entirely overwhelmed by all the foam statistics. I appreciate the transparency and the selection though!

There is quite a bit of foam data available on TMU and while it can be a bit overwhelming to digest initially, you will be surprised at how much you'll learn once you test mattresses personally and can experience a "feel" with those numbers. Without specific foam density ratings and other such component specs, there is no meaningful way to gauge a mattress's durability potential. Generally speaking, for a polyfoam support core , an HD/ High Density foam weighing a minimum of 1.5 - 1.8 lbs. per cu. ft. is an acceptable quality, and an HR/ High Resiliency foam weighing 2.5 lbs. per cu. ft. with a support factor of 2.4 or higher is acceptable. Memory foam is almost always used as a comfort material, where its unique pressure relieving qualities are most beneficial. A higher quality memory foam is in the 5 lb. density range or higher and will last longer in that range. A reputable manufacturer or showroom will be happy to share these numbers with you, as they are commonly requested details.

With all that said, what are my most important considerations? What are the most obvious things I should be looking for considering my sleep profile?

You may want to give a quick scan of Phoenix's "Mattress Specifications You Need to Know" , there is a brief list of 5 points that are important to consider before a purchase of any mattress. You will also want a thorough understanding of return/ exchange policies and warranty process in writing for future reference.

Being a bony person, do I need to be more or less worried about pressure points than a heavier person? In retail parlance, do I generally want a "softer" mattress? Do I want more than 2" of comfort?

With your lighter BMI and lack of "internal comfort layer", softer/ more plush comfort materials may be a consideration for your combination sleeping positions. A 3" comfort layer could do the trick. Mattress testing will provide clues to the appropriate thickness as only you can "feel" what you feel while researching.

Spinal alignment is important to me as a principle; how do I go about looking for a firmer support layer?

Phoenix discusses how to test mattresses using your various sleeping positions while making your showroom visits (see article "Testing a Mattress for Support and Spinal Alignment") . Essentially, you'll want to spend some time in each of your sleep positions, relax as much as possible, and listen to what your body is telling you, paying attention to how your body feels in each position. It is also helpful (if possible) to have someone take some snaps as you interact with the mattress, allowing you to see how your spinal alignment appears in each of your sleeping positions. The pics along with any notes that you take (voice notes work well for research) will help you later as you begin narrowing down many choices to fewer ones.

Does density play a role in the foam's ability to "push back"?

Density is an indicator of a foam's intended firmness and can contribute to how your body senses the foam's feel. The numbers are a general measure for how different amounts of the foam's materials vary the foam's firmness and give the consumer a point of reference for comparison. "Push back" is more of a foam's response to the user; different types of foams respond differently and not every foam provides that feel. For example, as memory foam warms to your body's heat, it slowly moves away from you, allowing you to "sink into" the mattress and providing a cradling feeling for pressure relief. An open-cell latex foam such as Talalay latex, however, offers a buoyant, uplifting feel of "sleeping on" a mattress and gives the sensation of "push back" with its natural rubber feel.

I guess what I want is confidence in knowing what I'm looking for, and what I should be asking about when I'm calling around to retailers without clear specs on their websites. I definitely tend to over research these things, but I'm not messing around with my sleep! Once I narrow things down, I might be able to get into a showroom if lockdown permits.

Here is a quick list of mattress shopping questions (also referenced above) that will help you get started with the basics of spec research. These conversation starters will help you with leading manufacturer/ showroom personnel discussions when researching mattresses.

I'm sure much of this is available in the articles, but there's a lot of them and some of them aren't very ADHD-friendly. I'd appreciate any tips to help focus my search. Thanks to the TMU crew for this incredible resource, and for all the insights I've already gained on here. It'll be an invaluable asset someday when I look for something more permanent. Thanks!

Understood, patrowdy; there are many years of research and topics here and its definitely a great deal to process. Hopefully, you'll find some of these basics a good starting point to guide you in the right direction. Feel free to ask more questions, consult with any of the TMU expert members , as well as other TMU consumer subscribers, they are also great resources and love to share their experiences. Thanks too for your kind words on the site; they are much appreciated! Good luck and keep us posted with your research.

Sensei ;)
14 Feb 2021 10:57
  • darrylb
  • darrylb's Avatar
Hey, thanks for this great reply! I am glad you knew of the product, and had thought it out a bit. I too am curious what Sensei thinks. Just a quick tweak. You are right, a standard Split King is 7598 when on sale (Sales rep told me that they are predictable in there 1k reduction on holidays, the sales begin on the Mondays). Im curious if there is sales tax if I bought online. That's something ill investigate. As for the parts durability your right, if not under warranty the cost may be a bit high---but, it is a 10 year warranty, and so if after 10 years, I need to spend 300-500, I actually am ok, because I am adding many years to a good sleep. To be honest, I think when my wife sells her next house, we would put half-down, and finance the other half as I use this to help improve her credit. My guess is ill be back at that retail store in the near future to re-rest...without my 2 year old, so i can lay on it for some 30+ minutes and let the bed auto-adjust.

Also, a side note about the auto-adjust. You dont have to enable that!. As they were walking me through the app, you have multiple options. You can pre-program a "back" program, a "side" program, you can let Auto adjust set a reasonable baseline, save and adjust it, etc. But what I liked a lot more, (and im a data guy, fair warning) it uses heuristics to measure hundreds of spots, to monitor your sleep patterns, and learn from not on you, but others. I asked the guy, and he mentioned that if my arm hurts, and it sees me tossing and turning, its going to learn from that. I can either have it auto-adjust, or I can use the nightly results to adjust accordingly. Dont think its automatic---that is optional. The sales rep suggested start with automatic to get a "reasonable firmness/config" and after a few nights, then slowly tweak each piece, and he said to start with my hips then shoulder (as he felt the other spots for my wife and I wont be a problem). Oh, and to you Mattrebuild, he called out that her and my hips and shoulders are a bit wide--and agreed that is the same issue he has and why this bed might be a good fit. (he mentioned his shoulder before i mentioned mine!).

I'm thinking I am eyeing a "Eastern King Split Top" which actually is 5899. We have a 2 year old, and as such the sales rep said---if you have a full split, not only are you paying more, but your taking away an opportunity for your kid to lay between you. He also made mention of how full splits "travel apart" and you would be constantly re-adjusting them back together. Though I am not horribly concerned about this, it is a good point. Also for intimacy, having the lower 3/5 not split, I could see some value. The rep still used the adjustable base, to raise one side of the beds feet, by some 8+ inches, and it allowed me to lay flat without much issue. But the rep was also trying to convince me that its not only cheaper, but that if my issues are rectified by laying on my back with a small include top and bottom, it would be a non-issue anyways. His feedback was he often hears complaints of split kings, but not top-split kings. I thought that was interesting. And of course, buying split-top king sheets doesn't sound fun. But when you go the split-top, its basically the same price as the Temperpedic KING that I was eyeing, and significantly cheaper than a Temperpedic Split king. So I see it as actually possibly a cheaper option!. On a side note, and the reason I rant on this, is my wife when pregnant, hated laying on her black---flat. She would use some 7 pillows to position herself well, and proper herself up. This split-top king would solve that problem entirely. So, just a thought.

The sales rep did acknowledge the "flobed concept" likely would solve my problem, he ultimately just said--they are heavy, floppy, and your going to be unzipping and tweaking for a while. He did not take its credibility away, and thought extremely well of Talalay. They don't sell it anymore because the company they sold switched to eCommerce a year ago. They sell a dunlop mattress now, but said it wasnt very comparable. I got to admit, this guy was very low pressure sales--and I appreciated that!.
21 Dec 2020 07:08
  • Sensei
  • Sensei's Avatar
Hey beth819,

Welcome back! Thanks for your updates :) .

Sorry for the delay, things have been hectic and I had to pause on this. I contacted the local manufacturers and unfortunately they didn't work out because they said there is a shortage in latex right now and that it is hard to get. A couple of them said 5-6 weeks, but even with that their prices are very expensive compared to some of the online retailers listed here.

Thanks for mentioning the latex delivery lead times, Beth. There is not a shortage of latex per se but more a production slowdown related to affects of COVID-19 impacting manufacturing staff and the production process. Talalay latex is supplied to US manufacturers either by Talalay Global or Radium Foam and during normal times pre-pandemic, production delays would not be an issue. Glad to hear that you made price comparisons and found TMU's trusted members to be more affordable.

I contacted a few of the online manufacturers listed on this site and one of them suggested that instead of replacing my 3" of 21 with a 19", because he said 18-21 ILD difference is minimal, he said to get a 2" of 14 ILD to add on top of my existing configuration. I asked if 14" of latex would be too much and he said no. What are you thoughts on adding a 2" topper instead of replacing my 3" of 21? Thank you!

You can always try adding a 2"/ 14 ILD layer to the top of your current setup and decide whether the added soft comfort layer will provide the pressure point relief that you seek. You don't mention in your comments, but were you able to try the visual exercise discussed in the last post response? It would be helpful for you to see how your body alignment is relative to your mattress, a picture pairs what you are feeling with how your body is interacting with the comfort and support layers.

Good luck with whichever way you decide and hope that you find the softer topper solution provides better rest :) .

28 Nov 2020 14:34
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi GeauxTigers.

It sounds like you've got a good plan moving forward and very good input from GeauxTigers. ;) Your good research is sure to pay off when all is said and done.

By choosing Dunlop as my support layer, will I get a more balanced feel? I don’t want an overly bouncy feel. Our favorite bed feel so far was a dreamcloud premier. It had a soft quilted pillow top with an initial 1-2” plush feel followed by a small amount of “memory foam sink”, support feeling, then the slight bounce of the coils.

It is probably the best of both worlds for what you are trying to achieve but It's hard to tell if you'll be able to notice the difference between Talalay - Dunlop vs Talalay – Talalay of equivalent ILDs. Yes, the Dunlop having a higher support factor will be more supportive, which will contribute to both comfort and with its “point elastic,” nature will be lending some secondary support for any recessed areas of your body that may otherwise collapse if using only a very soft comfort later on top of an excessively firm support layer.

Although nothing is as good as memory foam when it comes to motion isolation, latex, pocket coils, microcoils, buckling column gel, and even polyfoam are generally good as well but it will depend to some degree on the specific design of the mattress, if the mattress is split or not, on your relative weight ranges (it is good for motion isolation that you are both light wieght), and your sleeping style (such as how close you sleep together).

Based on inferior materials of the dreamcloud, I did not purchase it. I’d like to mimic the feel if possible though.

While this is a good pointer of what you like, I would avoid trying to design a mattress with the goal of re-creating or “mimicking” the feel of a particular mattress, and keep the focus on PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) the quality, durability, and type of materials you prefer and on how they feel and perform in your testing. Learning how all the mattress specs and designs work together can take years of experience and a great deal of knowledge and a steep learning curve to be successful.

Overall, you'll create a superior mattress in terms of comfort, support, and durability that will perform differently than Dreamcloud mattress which will become a distant memory.

by choosing coils instead of a latex core, how would it impact the amount of “bounce” the mattress will have. Should I expect a more or less overall bounce comparing the QE bolsa coils to a firm Dunlop core with the same topping layers of medium Dunlop and soft talalay?

:) Little that you know that you opened a can of worms. The short answer is they both are good at motion isolating but in different ways.

It depends on the type of movements of the sleeper and on the sensitivity to the movement of each sleeper. For example, comfort layers will have more of an effect on smaller or slower movements or can “dampen” the effect of the layers below …..while support layers will have more of an effect on larger, stronger, or faster movements. There are also different types of each material and different mattress constructions that can have more of an effect than the material itself. Trying to make comparisons for each material in isolation can be more misleading than helpful. All of these would be subject to the specifics of the overall mattress construction and the sensitivity and sleeping style of the people on the mattress which may have just as much of an effect as the material itself. there are pocketed spring models that do offer an extremely “dead” feel as the springs

Pocket springs work "independently" of each other and usually have more coils of a higher gauge (thinner) to conform better. While a quality pocket coil is fine for most people and often preferred for their feel and movement isolation ... (depending on the gauge and construction).
Most manufacturers would agree that latex is "good" with motion separation, especially the slower heavier types of movement such as turning over or bouncing or getting out of bed, and are an improvement over other materials (except memory foam) but again this depends on the type of movement or vibration and the specific construction of the mattress, the ticking and quilting materials, and the materials or components above and below the latex and even the bedding above the latex as well.

Looking forward to your continued progress and decisions.
@GeauxTigers thanks for your informative responses and contributions. Glad to know that you both are so happy with your DIY build. :)

26 Nov 2020 16:26
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi GeauxTigers.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum. :)

Thank you for your kind words! It is worthwhile placing one’s energy in following the “road less traveled” that has integrity and truthfulness as its core values. I’ve seen the “demand” for such values growing slowly but surely. We spend a great deal of time educating consumers and providing the knowledge that will help them take out of the equation any guesswork and “dice rolling”. Unfortunately, too many consumers out there are vulnerable to advertising gimmicks, fake reviews, and more often than not an opaque and confusing mattress industry.

A DIY mattress can be both challenging and rewarding and it is best to be approached in a "spirit of adventure" where what you learn and the gratification that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen). You're right that this way you can be sure of long-term durability and get very close to the perfect comfort/support for your needs and preferences.

Thanks for sharing detailed sleeping specifications and your mattress testing experience! This is obviously all very useful when it comes to gathering any meaningful data points to help guide your DIY build.

We both like a more plush feel with a small hint of that sinking in foam feeling in the top layer, without the deep sinking stuck in the mud feeling.

Indeed, latex seems to “fit the bill” quite nicely for most of your needs and preferences. A showroom latex testing will definitely confirm if you and your GF like the latex feel and eliminate one of the “unknowns”. I suggest you try both Talalay and Dunlop Of the same ILD on the same base. Generally, Talalay is very point elastic and "bouncy" and it’s probably the best material for avoiding the "stuck" feeling that you would get with memory foam, and has the ability to conform to the shape of a body, as you put it “with a small hint of sinking in the foam”. Latex is unusual for its ability to be both soft and supportive at the same time.

I however need adequate support if I continue to sleep on my stomach. I have recently started to wake up with temporary back pain if I sleep on a mattress with no support.

Kudos for doing in-depth research on TMU to learn the basics. You are again “right on” as stomach sleepers should choose the thinnest firmest comfort layers that are comfortable as sinking in too far can lead to a swayback position and cause back issues. Stomach sleeping is the most prone of all sleeping positions to sinking down too far in the pelvic area.

However, this directly "contradicts" the needs of side-sleeping, which requires that comfort layers generally need to be a little softer and/or thicker … to allow for your large shoulders to sink-in sufficiently to avoid any pressure point pains, tingling, or numbness. You would need to find the golden mean in terms of finding the right layer thickness and ILD for your comfort/support needs

You can read more about the needs of the various sleeping positions here , assuming you haven't already encountered this in your research.

Taking into consideration the information on this site, I am leaning towards the following:
QE Bolsa coils (since we both are side sleepers and the combizone may not align with my gf correctly due to her size)
2-3" Medium Talalay mid layer
2-3" Soft Talalay top layer (maybe ultra soft for my gf's side) (and maybe copper infused for cooling purposes)
Bamboo or Cotton quilted wool cover

Great start for your DIY… I think it's smart to consider a potential side by side split since there is a bit of a differential in you and your partner's BMIs and she may require something a little softer than you. The good news is that this may not be necessary … with your GF's petite frame, low BMI, and back/side sleeping positions would also need some good primary deep support and less comfort thickness. 2” of soft Talalay on top of 1-2” mid-layer and firm deep support should be sufficient for her to get the best of both worlds.

I wouldn’t go out of your way to seek a copper-infused layer - latex is in and of itself the most breathable foam on the market, and great for those who seek a temperature neutral material. I’ve seen some infused latex starting to crumble after some time of use. The additives in “Infused” latex are relatively new offerings and it is unclear how it affects the quality or durability over a longer period of time.
As far as “cooling purposes” go, layers that are closer to the top sleeping surface will have the greatest impact upon comfort and sleeping temperature (including your mattress pad, sheets, and linen). There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress or sleeping system in post #2 here .

I'm not sure if I should consider a medium dunlop mid-layer for a more conforming feel and possibly more support or stay with the talalay? I'm also curious whether I should use 2" or 3" for my latex layers? I'm attempting to find a local retailer that carries latex mattresses so I can get a better feel for latex in general and hopefully talalay vs dunlop.

Talalay latex has a high support factor of about 3 but Dunlop is even higher in the range of 4 so a combination between them would offer a range of flexibility and qualities that other foams cannot duplicate (most other foams are less than 3). Dunlop mid-layer in the same ILD would be more supportive. While many people would not notice a difference in feel between having a mid-Talalay layer as opposed to a mid-Dunlop layer, only you can tell for sure. Given everything you shared thus far, you should not need more than 4” of latex on top of the coils.
Because of your prone sleeping position and your GF's petite 6” of foam may create some problems in terms of needed support which should be your primary concern. I’d start DIY building from the ground up. Generally, you can always add a softer topper if more softness is needed but you cannot fix a mattress that is too soft.

For your testing trip... It's possible you've already taken a look at these resources, but you may find our article on Dunlop v Talalay in the support layers useful, as well as the counterpart about Dunlop and Talalay in the comfort layers .

We have a number of DIY experts on the forum as well who you may wish to reach out to with questions.
Ken Hightower at Arizona Premium is a great resource with a dedicated forum here on TMU and
Memory Foam Comfort is also a great option if you need to pick someone's brain.
DIY Natural Bedding is a great resource too. While they are not yet an expert on TMU their level of expertise is exceptional. If you wish to reach them out through the forum let me know and we can drop them a line to come to your aid.

Of course, in-person testing will be pointing you in the best direction to go. Meanwhile, we're happy to help you here in any way we can.

16 Nov 2020 12:02
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Gormeroth.

It is very encouraging when readers like you have such a thorough approach and analysis of choice, construction, and materials without getting trapped in marketing stories nor in the showroom feel of a mattress. (which usually is different than when you sleep for a while on the bed of your choice). Also, it’s great seeing how you take into account the various intangible elements and contributors that lead to your selection (including the psychological aspect and the power of habit). Research well-done! With your X-ray vision is hard to get things wrong.

I am glad that you are considering physical therapy or chiropractic adjustments in addition to a suitable mattress. This can make a world of difference when it comes to back pain and a bad mattress can certainly aggravate any condition you might have.

Even though you didn’t ultimately purchase the Tempurpedic mattress, you are correct that in the process of considering it you gained valuable data points and confirmed what you liked and don’t like about it …. especially how easy it can be to be swept off your feet with a nice comfy feeling that you can always return it. Once a purchase is made, you’d be surprised how many people can put up with minor or not so minor discomforts that could have been avoided with a more thorough approach. Once the purchase is made, life can take over, and psychologically it is perceived as a done deal. Many people try to get used to things that don’t quite fit and “make it” work …. this is not to the best approach as eventually, any small issue may slowly grow.

I found a local place that specialized in natural mattresses. I was in there for hours and tried out everything and learned a lot. Here are the most important realizations. I like latex, and I like memory foam. But I LOVE when both are together.

Another important data points. I am glad that you were able to actually go to a local shop, test, get good advice.

This lead me to the bed of my dreams. The Posh + Lavish Flux. It is an 11 inch latex bed with a memory foam top layer… I have contacted them and all they could tell me was about the top layer being a 4lbs memory foam. It was a nice medium response memory foam. I'm assuming what's underneath is a combination of dunlop and talaly… I've been on a journey to recreate the feeling of this bed. But this guy isn't spending 5-7k on a bed. I want to buy high quality amazing latex that will last in the long run while supplementing it with a memory foam topper I can replace every few years. It's the small price to pay for total bliss.

It's great you were able to get the comfort layer memory foam density. Posh+Lavish doesn’t tend to provide much information about their mattresses, but this is a good starting point. As you well know every layer and component in a mattress can affect the feel and performance of every other layer and the mattress "as a whole". I’d be a bit careful with trying to replicate the feel of this mattress because all the layers and materials aren't the same and the design is different for each mattress, every difference between two mattresses can either have a cumulative effect or an offsetting effect that is very difficult for even a knowledgeable and experienced online manufacturer or retailer to predict how will play out. Most people only pay attention only to the ILD numbers of the foam layers and not to all the other specs or components that can make a significant difference in how a mattress feels and performs). … With this type of construction, I would normally suggest a thinner layer of memory foam over a thinner layer of latex so that you can notice more of the "feel" of both materials and there would be less risk of alignment issues.

… it has made the most sense to have a 5-6 inches of high-quality dunlop (2 layers), and have a 2-4 inches transition support to comfort layer of soft talalay to a quality high density medium/fast responding memory foam. This is where I got 11-12 inches from.

11-12’ mattress can perform very well given a good comfort/support match. You can see my thoughts about the effects of thicker layers or a thicker mattress in post #14 . With a 12" mattress ... the firmness would need to go up (than what you had for a less tick mattress) on average because thicker mattresses will "act" softer for most people. If you make changes to one of the specs (such as the layer thickness of the top layer) ... then you may also need to make other changes to the other layers to compensate.

Another benefit of a thicker matter is that more individual layers would also give you more options to customize the "feel" and performance of the mattress either before or after a purchase which can be a benefit for some people that need to do some fine-tuning of their mattress.

I do want to be careful and heed your advice though. I am aware that if I go too soft and not support enough, I could have a misaligned spine and exacerbate my back issues. I am trying to find the healthy balance of having just enough support while giving myself the pressure relief I crave in a contour conforming responsive plush cloud. I know, it seems impossible.

You seem to be well informed and know what to look out for in terms of specs, needs, and personal preferences. I am looking forward to your progress! The benefit of a DIY is that you can keep exploring and experiment until you find the perfect combination for your comfort/support needs, in a way that is hard to achieve with a “ready-made” mattress that also fits within your budget. :)

Looking forward to updates as you go.

28 Oct 2020 00:45
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi DuckytheLoon.

You are welcome! Congratulations on your new Sleeping Organic purchase. Glad to hear it was a positive shopping, shipping, and set up experience.
Thanks for sharing your current sleep configuration as well.

…however, it is still not soft enough for me. Can you believe it? Argh. My ridiculous diva body!! I know we've only had it for 5 days, but at this point in my mattress experience, I'm confident I can tell that it's the same problem. It is softer than the Purple, but not dramatically. I am still experiencing too much push-back overall and definitely too much pressure (not enough sinking in) on my shoulder. Sigh. I was careful to arrange my layers so that the side with the larger holes was up, too.

In your situation, I’d recommend a bit of experimenting. Firstly suggest removing the mattress protector, and the fitted sheet. You would be very surprised at how often the bedding is the culprit in creating a too-firm sleeping experience. If that helps even slightly, I’d take into account the adjustment period for any new mattress and I would sleep on it like that (without the protector and fitted sheet) for 30 nights to allow for your body to adjust to the new mattress and for the mattress to adjust to you.

1. What thickness of memory foam would be appropriate? Would 4" be excessive or just right? I want enough depth to accommodate my shoulder (not that I have large shoulders).

To find the Mattress/Topper combo that best matches your needs and preferences can be as complicated as selecting the right mattresses. It is impossible to predict what’s going to be your perfect fit, as it comes down to personal preference and your specific needs.
Based on your set up, you’re currently sleeping on:9” of latex
3” Talalay extra soft topper
3” Talalay medium
3” Dunlop firm

Would you be removing the 3” extra soft topper to replace it with the 4” memory foam? It can be problematic if you use both topers.as this adds up to 7” comfort thickness and causes you to sink in too much and compromise your support and alignment which will most likely result in back pains over time. The second issue you may experience is memory foam that it is generally the least breathable and most insulating of the foam comfort materials, so temperature can be an issue. If you do choose memory foam, you’d want to make sure that you don’t choose something with so much memory foam on top that you sink in too deeply.

2. What would be an ideal density for my purposes? How far under or over 4lb density should I go? I understand that higher density memory foam is more durable, but I have seen conflicting information about how it might impact its "softness."

Density and plushness (ILD) aren’t necessarily correlated with memory foam. You can choose a higher density memory foam that is more durable and that feels very soft.

3. On cooling: have any gel memory foams or other strategies for cooling advanced enough at this point to consider them?

In general terms, gel foams will tend to have a temporary effect on temperature while you are first going to sleep until temperatures equalize but have less effect on temperature regulation throughout the course of the night (which sounds like your experience).

As far as temperature sleeping microclimate goes... keep in mind that the topper will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than other materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin.
There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of mattresses/sleeping systems in post #2 here that can help you choose the types of materials and components that are most likely to keep you in a comfortable temperature range. When you lie on a memory foam mattress, it will soften with heat and pressure and become semi-solid. It is also less open-celled than other foams so the air inside the foam takes more time to both moves away from pressure and also to come back "on the rebound". This transformation from elastic behavior to viscous (liquid) behavior and back again in combination with the more closed-cell structure of the foam results in a slower response to changing pressure and shape and is why it is often called "slow response foam".

Some of the factors involved in how warm a mattress sleeps are how closely the foam conforms to your body (the more closely it conforms around you the more insulating it is), how soft or thick the foam in the comfort layers are (the softer/thicker it is the deeper you will sink into the more insulating materials), the type of quilting used in the mattress (natural fibers allow for more airflow and humidity control which translates into better temperature regulation), the type of ticking (cover) used (natural or more breathable fibers such as cotton or viscose or even some of the more breathable synthetics will wick away moisture and ventilate better and humidity control is a key part of temperature control), and on any cooling technologies used in the mattress such as ventilating and moisture wicking materials, heat conductive materials, or phase change materials (you can read more about these in post #9 here and at the end of post #4 here ) and you can read more about the various different types of gel foams in post #2 here .

You may also be interested in the information in post #29 about temperature regulation and mattress microclimate.

4. Mattress protector: what would be most appropriate, with an emphasis on cooling/sweat-wicking, waterproofing, and allowing the softness of the topper to be felt? The Purple protector we have at the moment is stretchy, thin, and noiseless, but I don't know if it might be contributing to heat problems. I see wool cited a lot as a good material. Are there any particular models/merchants that would be satisfactory? This is another jungle to me…so many are quilted or padded on top, and my concern is that padding/lack of stretch would interfere with the topper feel.

While mattress protectors are not the focus of the forum, there are quite a few topics that could be useful to you…Post #89 on the pros and cons of different zippered mattress protectors
Post addressing breathability and functionality of mattress protectors .Post summarizes different materials used in mattress protectors , and ultimately how the material of the protector you choose will boil down to personal preference.

5. Fitted sheet: Similarly to the question above, do you think it is necessary to have a "stretchy" sheet to experience the softness of the topper? Normally, I prefer cotton (percale or flannel, not sateen) and linen, but these are decidedly not elastic. Trying to weigh cooling vs. stretching benefits. Honestly, if the topper is soft enough, it might not matter if nothing else is elastic, just as long as there's enough slack to allow sinking in. I might be getting paranoid, haha.

It may be the combination of your protector and the fitted sheet being very taut that prevents you from getting more softness you desire so yes; I do think the fitted sheet can affect to a certain degree the experience you have with “softness” on a mattress.

Yet again I’ve left you with a lot to think and read through! Hopefully, you find it helpful in working through your softness and temperature issues. Please let me know if you have additional questions as you sift through all of these resources!

10 Sep 2020 21:03
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi A-Raw.

It’s unfortunate that you’re experiencing such intense lower back pain on your new mattress!

I know there's an adjustment period, but this level of pain is not acceptable as an adjustment. It is disappointing because i spent this small fortune to help FIX my back pain.
The mattress is non-refundable, but they do unlimited piece exchanges for 90 days.

Although I can’t say for sure … with the little I know about your condition I’d venture to say that in the case of your old mattress your body “worked hard” over a long enough period of time to compensate for all the imbalances you are mentioning and “learned” ways to adjust, cope and give you a relatively good night sleep. (although the back pains that you experienced on your old m mattress are already a red flag) While it still may be the case with a new mattress and your hemiplegic condition that your body would have to “unlearn old ways” and relearn new ways to adjust to a very different sleeping environment …. unfortunately, there’s really no way to tell if the mattress is the main contributing factor to your back issue and I would strongly recommend that you contact your healthcare professional for the best advice to assess, mitigate, correct neurological damage.

I'm a 130lb 5'11 hemiplegic … my left side has a reduced mass. but as you can see in the diagram, my left shoulder is quite small and hunched, and my hip sticks out a lot.I am mostly a left side sleeper (60-80%) and then I roll onto my back when the side isn't doing it for me. as you might imagine, my shoulder and hip bears most of my load.

With the new mattress, it is possible for certain people to experience some discomfort and minor pains, but intense pain shouldn’t be part of an adjustment period. You mentioned the mattress is 7 zones and Talalay latex with unlimited layer exchanges for 90 days. Back pain in your “ lower and right-side mid-back“ could very well be an indication that your spine is not getting the alignment was adjusted to … It is very hard to say in your case and I am not a specialist. I would make sure to document all the changes you make to the zoning and collect enough data points to share with someone that is qualified to better help with this. You already have pre-existing conditions and back issues which really complicates testing out a new mattress, as it introduces new variables into the equation of attempting to objectively analyze your new mattress. This being said I’ll try to make some general comments that may be useful.

Alignment/support is the most important thing that a mattress does for you. You'll want to choose something that doesn't allow for too much of accentuation of your already preexisting 30+ degree spinal lateral curvatures when side sleeping, Generally, you'd want to look for something with "just enough" surface plushness to assist with contouring for your shoulders and hips. I wouldn't be able to tell you how much that would be, as there are so many variables involved, including your body type, the threshold of sensitivity, and of course your physical needs, but definitely t you had a good call on choosing something where the zoning can be rearranged and you can experiment with it.

I did notice from your images that your new mattress has an “egg crate” style top layer. I would suggest removing that and sleeping on the flat layers directly to see if that makes a difference. (make sure to change only one variable at a time to be able to draw conclusions.

so, the first night, I slept on the map as is (first sheeted image)(right side of bed) but it hurt my back so I took the 1's out from the bottom of the bed and replaced the 2s in the hip... I think it made the pain worse but it is hard to tell... it definitely made back-sleeping more painful. But I my posture looks better in the second picture?

All of these are good experiments but you would also need to give a little more time to your body to catch up with the change. Pain worsening is a good indicator that you need to move in the other direction with zoning combinations… hard to say from the photos if you got better posture as this is relative to your condition.

the left side of the bed has a softer core layer (4 instead of 5) so I'm going to try that tonight.. if it gets worse i guess that means I need a firmer mattress?... the store I bought the bed from is 2.5 hours away so its not easy to exchange pieces... Any suggestions?

It’s been a few days since you wrote to us. Have you since tried sleeping on the left side of the bed? If so, how did that go? Was the pain better/worse/the same?

You asked if the pain gets worse, would that mean you need a firmer mattress? It’s possible. It is hard for me to say for sure, as nothing can replace your own personal testing or experience on a mattress, especially as you do have some specific health considerations. Because the store you purchased from is a bit far, it may be worth a call to discuss what you’re experiencing with them prior to making the trip out for an exchange. They may have a few recommendations for you as far as the configuration – and ultimately whether or not an exchange is needed and if so, what kind of layer may be more appropriate.

Also, I sleep on my left side and the pain is in my lower and right-side mid back. Is that telling of where the problem is at all?

Again it is hard to tell as there are far too many variables involved .. but I did notice quite a bit torsion of your lower body.. I'd try some propping with pillows to make sure that you investigate that as a possible cause. There could many possible reasons for the pains you are describing....This could be the result of either mattress support layers being too soft…or comfort layers that are too thick and soft which can allow some parts of the body to "travel" too far. It can also be from comfort layers that are too thin or firm or support layers that are too firm where the "gaps" in your sleeping profile (such as under the lumbar curve or waist) aren't being filled in and supported which can also allow the more recessed parts of the body to sag or "travel" too far. These can both lead to pain and discomfort in either the back or joints when either the spine or joints are outside of their "neutral" alignment.

I would suggest, again, contacting your healthcare professional, giving the shop you purchased from a call and discussing your issues with them to see what kind of solution they can offer, and also experimenting with the layers and zoning you have but changing only one variable at a time and keeping good notes. Being methodical about your experiments in combination with the professional help, you get your body will slowly teach you what it needs.

Good luck! Looking forward to any updates.

06 Sep 2020 22:56
  • Asbrandt
  • Asbrandt's Avatar
Apologies in advance for the long post. As per the title, I'm seeking advice and a second check on what I've learned so far.
I'm posting in the Arizona Premium Mattress forum because I intend(ed) to purchase components from them or their companion site.

[ First; Information and Preferences: ]

  • Mattress for one, Twin XL.

  • Height and Weight: 5'10" 315 lbs.
  • -> Weight carried mostly in the stomach, some in the thighs. Losing weight slowly, about 25 lbs over the past year.

  • Lumbar recess depth is about 3" and shoulder to chest is about 6".

  • Primarily sleep on my back, occasionally on my side.
  • -> However I'm not sure if I'm only ending up on my side due to discomfort from my ~19 year old thick-pillowtop mattress.

  • I do sleep hot, so I am concerned about breathability.
  • -> For this reason I also probably don't want to be too much further "in" the mattress than needed for good support.

  • Considering DIY for the ease of changing components either for adjustment or repair, and wanting to avoid fiberglass fire barriers.

  • [ Second; The initial build plan: ]

  • After my first round of reading, I had a straightforward rough idea; 3" 28 or 32 ILD Talalay on a 6" L&P non-zoned Pocket Coil.
  • -> Chose the 6" non-zoned coil in case I do really sleep on my side occasionally, adding a layer won't make the mattress too thick.
    -> Would seek advice on cover options, protectors and other bedding for my heat issues after getting the layering right.

  • But after encountering some of the information below, particularly the calculators, I'm not sure if it was a good plan.

  • [ Third; What (I think) I've learned: ]

  • That Talalay 'feels' about 4 ILD softer than the same rating of Dunlop; Does this difference apply to support concerns as well?

  • That Pocket Coils might not be appropriate for my weight; I read that the 8" Bolsa coils are roughly mid-30s ILD in firmness?
  • -> I did read that the 6" version would behave firmer as it's pre-compressed further, but I didn't see any rough ILD comparisons.

  • That 9" thickness would either be marginal or is outright insufficient, I've seen some varying input on this.
  • -> While I understand that DIY shouldn't be approached for saving money, I also don't want to go overboard if it can be avoided.

  • I have tested mattresses in person, however I've found I'm not picky and don't have 'immediate' comfort issues with any I've tried.
  • -> The concern (and problem with my current mattress) is one of proper support throughout the night.
    -> I wake with only minor aches and stiffness, but it's enough to know there's a problem.

    [ Fourth; The Showstopper: ]

  • I read a post that mentioned SleepEz and FloBeds having recommendation calculators on their site.
  • -> They suggested I need much firmer than I thought from seeing APM's options and extrapolating from the guideline articles I read.
    -> Both suggest ~44 ILD support layers and SleepEz' also suggests a 37-40 ILD transition layer, neither of which are available from APM.

  • I'm not sure how I should proceed from here so I'm hoping for expert advice.
  • 13 Jun 2020 21:06
    • phoenix
    • phoenix's Avatar
    Hi Clock24.

    Welcome to our Forum :)

    I see why you feel discouraged in your attempts to fix your current mattress. People with an hourglass body shape typically have a hard time finding the perfect balance between pressure relief and neutral spinal alignment for all sleeping positions. To adapt a Jessica Rabbit’s saying “I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way” …. not too bad, just need a solution :)

    You seem to have a good understanding of how your body shape affects your sleeping landscape. I don’t know how much you read since finding our site about the two main functions of every mattress
    1. to keep your spine and joints inside the range of their neutral alignment in all your sleeping positions and
    2. to relieve pressure by redistributing your weight across the surface of the mattress.
    In your case getting a good match for your side sleeping position means that you may have trouble when you change positions during the course of the night. Some people with similar issues look into training themselves to sleep primarily on their back and others make sure that they focus on getting it right for their primary sleeping position and opt for zoned mattresses.

    So I bought a soft 3" latex mattress topper (20 ILD, Dunlop, from Sleep on Latex, bought the cover, too) and tried it last night. My hip still doesn't sink in, neither does my shoulder; it is still quite a bit better than before, but I'm still in this C-shape on the bed if I try to sleep on my side. It is absolutely better than the down topper, but it still isn't comfortable. I was thinking about putting a topper on the new latex topper. Something softer than 20 ILD.

    Glad to hear that the Sleep on Latex topper helped with the pressure points too bad it still needs fine-tuning. I'd give some time to your body to unlearn the old ways and relearn and adapt to the new sleeping environment. A “very curvy” profile calls for either zoning or thicker mattress, however adding another topper on the existing one may not solve the issues you are having. Thickness and softness are very related and work together, adding more thickness to an existing 14.5” mattress/topper combo may compromise needed support for maintaining neutral alignment. Assuming that you’ve read the tutorial post here before deciding your next step I’d start by looking at the relationship between alignment and pressure relief issues and later at the temperature microclimate that you are trying to address. (Note also that memory foam comfort layers change softness/firmness with temperature variations.)

    There is more about primary or "deep" support and secondary or "surface" support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the "roles" of different layers in a mattress in In post #2 about firmness and support and in post #4 here may be helpful in clarifying the difference between mattress "support" and "pressure relief" and "feel" and it can also provide some useful insights into the reasons for pain and/or discomfort on a mattress.

    Because your shape is much more curvy than flat, some parts of the body (hips/pelvis) weigh more than others and some parts (shoulders) are wider than others... good support/alignment means that parts of your body need to be "allowed" to sink in more deeply and that other parts of your body need to be "stopped" from sinking in too deeply so that the end result is neutral alignment of the spine and joints. To help with understanding this I always link Post #6 about sleeping posture and alignment which uses an example of floating in the air and slowly sinking onto the mattress surface to help you visualize this.

    The goal is to have comfort layers that are "just enough" and no more in terms of thickness and softness to provide good pressure relief and fill in the gaps in the sleeping profile and support layers that are firm enough to "stop" the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far.
    I was thinking about putting a topper on the new latex topper. Something softer than 20 ILD. I read about horsehair toppers today, which are wicked expensive, and I'm not sure what the ILD is. It does sound like "sleeping on a cloud," though, which sounds like it would help. It also sounds like it doesn't flatten like down. Is there anything else comparable? Any information on the softness of these?

    ILD is used to describe foams and gels, and not horsehair toppers. In case of foams, anything with an ILD of 12 or under is going to be considered “very soft.” From what you describe you need something that is both soft and breathable/moisture wicking. Lyocell (wood pulp), bamboo, linen, silk, wool, horsehair is all good moisture-wicking materials for bedding and will vary in perceived “softness.” . One caveat, horsehair as a topper will tend to compress a bit over time and is a bit of a firmer topper material. Wool is particularly know for its' heat and moisture-wicking properties so it may not be a bad idea to try a wool product. You may wish to read through this post about how to chose a topper.

    I unfortunately have high-maintenance temperature issues. I set an infrared blanket to warm me up for the first hour of sleep. I can't fall asleep until I am warm. If I fall asleep without it, as soon as my temperature drops, I wake up. If the sheets slip off my shoulder at night and my shoulder gets cold, I wake up. At the same time, I often wake up soaking with sweat later on in the night.
    I'm also wondering if I could do some kind of moisture-wicking sheets or PJs. I

    As far as the sleeping microclimate goes, even though Latex, in general, is the most breathable and "temperature neutral" of all the different types of foam materials I’d keep in mind that the firmness of a mattress and how much you sink into it can also affect sleeping temperature as well. I agree that you also have to consider other variables that are involved in (including your room temperature and humidity, your sheets and bedding and bedclothes, your mattress protector or any mattress pads you are using, and where you are in the "oven to iceberg" range) and there is more about tracking mattress temperature regulation issues potential causes ~ Post #2 here (at least to the degree possible for a specific mattress) and the posts it links to that may be helpful.

    For moisture-wicking sheets, you may want to read this sheets/bedding thread
    For moisture-wicking pajamas, here are some that aren’t made of synthetic or athletic materials:

    Dreamsacks: Bamboo
    Fisher’s Finery : Bamboo, Organic Cotton, Spandex
    SleepyTime : Bamboo, Spandex

    One you had the chance check out some of the articles and links provided we are always here if you have follow-up questions.

    20 Sep 2019 12:10
    • Sensei
    • Sensei's Avatar
    Hey mr yabo,

    Thanks for the update. In my opinion, this listing on Overstock - NuForm-Talalay-Latex-3-inch-Mattress-Topper is not the slow recovery latex. The "slow recovery latex" from Talalay Global was never sold in 3 different ild's as this listing shows. I am sure this is regular Talalay.

    Oh, and yes I think you are not alone with your statement "I do find their mattresses a little overpriced IMO"....at least for me, I agree w you.

    12 Sep 2019 17:01
    • Sensei
    • Sensei's Avatar
    Hey Mr yabo,

    Welcome to the forum :).

    I have not thought about the slow recovery latex. For the most part, only three companies made it in any volume. Talalay Global, Radium and Latexco...I sm sure some of the Asian manufacturers could process this foam.

    I know Brookly Bedding used to sell a lot of these toppers and some mattresses to Overstock.com, but I am not seeing anyone promoting this product either.

    It was not a "great product" felt kind of neat, when you touched it, but it really didnt feel that great as a comfort layer. A couple of big brands used it for a while, but it died down over time.

    It's not listed on the product page on Talalay global anymore on Talalay mattress cores page.

    Maybe someone else has some more info on this, I will check with the Talalay people to see if it's being sold anymore. You can also ask Ken at Arizona Premium, I know they sold it in the past, he would know if anyone is producing it anymore.

    02 Jan 2019 16:57
    • Kristy93292
    • Kristy93292's Avatar
    Update: first I would like to say, I sound crazy, I am not. First sign,I know. To the point. I completely reconstructed my bed. Harvested the pocketed innerspring from previous mattress (glad dump run was slow). The innerspring is now my base, 3 " dunlop(30ILD) follows with 2" (19ILD) talalay. So far only one night sleeping on it but woke up without severe hip pain . I continue to struggle with trying to determine if 30ILD is to firm or too soft because it seems to mimick both. Sensei mentioned 24ild as transition layer ,I'm wondering if exchanging 30ild for 24ild to go with 19ild better for comfort layer. I noticed my hips did not dip down with innerspring last night so alignment much better. But felt some pressure points. If I lay on the 30ild alone, the way I sink in it causes hip pain(arches lumbar up). Does this make any sense? That's why confused if too soft or firm. Would a 2" be better than a 3" now that I am working more with comfort layers where before was using the 30ILD as base. My return/exchange time running short which is reason for my urgency. Did talk to manufactures before I decided to attempt putting a hybrid together and they were somewhat to vaguely helpful. My hope is this forum can help me get this dialed in .at least i am moving in right direction because i am not dreading going to bed to night .Any feedback appreciated.
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