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Searched for: Active fusion slow
10 Feb 2016 01:04
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi rtb001,

It seems latex mattresses would not give that same feeling.


You're certainly right that latex and memory foam are very different materials with very different properties. There is more about how latex and memory foam compare in general terms in post #2 here .

1. A lot of the 100% latex mattresses seem to have similar construction. 3-4 layers of latex stacked inside a cotton cover which has maybe 1" of wool in the top for a total thickness of 9 to 12 inches.


Every layer and component in a mattress (including the cover) will have an effect on the feel and performance of every other layer and component above and below it and on the mattress "as a whole" and there are hundreds if not thousands of latex mattresses that are very different from each other that use different types and blends of latex, different layer thicknesses, different layer firmnesses, and that have very different designs. Some of them may be a great "match" for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) and some of them may be completely unsuitable for you to sleep on.

I'm assuming that you've read the mattress shopping tutorial but two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

2. So you kind of stack your own mattress, with the advantage of being able to swap out layers to customize for different levels of support.


The mattresses you are referring to are called component mattresses and this is certainly one of the advantages of having a component mattress with loose layers vs a mattress with glued layers and a cover that doesn't have a zipper. There is more about the pros and cons of a "finished mattresses" that has glued layers vs component mattresses with unglued layers and zip covers in post #15 here and post #2 here .

3. The high quality Talalay latex is only produced by 1 (or 2?) companies which supply all the US mattress manufacturers.


Any type of latex (either Dunlop or Talalay and made with synthetic rubber, natural rubber, or a blend of both) is a high quality and durable material relative to other types of foam and the choice between them would be more of a preference and a budget choice rather than a "better/worse" choice. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and more about how Dunlop compares to Talalay in general in post #7 here but the best way to know which type or blend of latex you tend to prefer will be based on your own testing and personal experience. As you mentioned there are two manufacturers that make Talalay latex which are Talalay Global (previously called Latex International) and Radium and both of them make a range of different types of Talalay latex including 100% natural and blended.

4. A benefit of many of these latex mattress companies is that their Twin XL is essentially half the price of a King size (compared to say Sealy, where a twin would be like $500, but a king is only $800), and it seems like a good idea (to me at least) to buy 2 Twin XLs to piece together a King bed, without much of a price hit. This way my tossing and turning won't translate over to my wife's side of the bed, and if we ever get an power bed foundation in the future, we can adjust them separately. Also, at least conceptually to me, I don't like the idea of two stacks of 2-4 layers of latex inside one king mattress. If there's going to be 2 stacks, why not just wrap each stack in its own cover?


There are some comments in post #8 here and in this topic about the pros and cons of a split king mattress (two twin XL mattresses instead of an eastern king size mattress).

So here is my ultimate question: I go to Healthy Back tomorrow, and for the first time in my life, try their Bliss latex mattress, and say I like it and it does not have that sink into a hole feeling of my parent's cheap memory foam mattress. Now if these are literally just layers of latex in a cotton cover, why pay $1700 for a Bliss Serenity 8" mattress, when I can have Sleep EZ mail me a 9" latex mattress for $950?


The biggest reason to buy any mattress is because it would be a good "match" for you in terms of PPP vs a different mattress with a different design that you may not sleep as well on.

There is more information in post #9 here about the different ways that one mattress can "match" or "approximate" another one. Again ... every layer and component in a mattress (including the cover and any quilting materials) will affect the feel and performance of every other layer and component and the mattress "as a whole" so unless you are able to find another mattress that uses exactly the same type of materials, components, cover, layer thicknesses, layer firmnesses, and overall design then there really isn't a way to match one mattress to another one in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP based on the specifications of the mattresses (even assuming that you can find out all the specifications you would need for both mattresses you are comparing).

Mattress manufacturers generally try to differentiate their mattress from the mattresses made by other manufacturers and don't normally try to "match" another mattress that is made by a different manufacturer so unless a manufacturer specifically says in their description of a mattress that one of their mattresses in the same general category is specifically designed to "match" or "approximate" another one in terms of firmness or "feel" and PPP and/or they are very familiar with both mattresses and can provide reliable guidance about how they compare based on the "averages" of a larger group of people that have compared them (different people may have very different opinions about how two mattresses compare) ... the only reliable way to know for certain how two mattresses that have different designs would compare for you in terms of how they "feel" or in terms of firmness or PPP would be based on your own careful testing or actual sleeping experience on both of them.

When you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and "feel" of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about "matching" their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.

Presumably they are made with latex manufactured by the same company? Sleep EZ seems to be the cheapest latex manufacture by far compared to say FloBeds. They seem to have been in business for several decades, and have been selling online since the 90s (and seem to have a website that never got updated since the 90s!). Is the mattress cover on the Bliss that much better than EZ's? Is that "Celsion" thing they claim to help you sleep cool really worth an extra thousand bucks?


As you probably know from your reading here both SleepEZ and Flobeds are members of this site which means that I think very highly of both of them and I believe that they both compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency although the mattresses they make have different designs. They would both make great quality/value choices.

There is more about Talalay Active Fusion (aka Celsion) in post #4 here . It would probably make a "slight" difference in termperature regulation compared to blended Talalay but a wool quilted cover would be a more effective method of temperature regulation yet. If the only difference between two mattresses was that one used a layer of Celsion on top and the other one didn't but they were otherwise identical then IMO the Celsion wouldn't be "worth" an extra $1000 but it's unlikely that this would be the only difference between two mattresses.

Would really appreciate your thoughts on 1) generally whether you feel the price premium for a full latex mattress is worth it, and 2) if there are any particular reasons why I should avoid the cheapest option, that being the Sleep EZ. It seems to me that Sleep EZ's prices are low enough to be competitive with hybrid latex mattress and even non-latex mattresses.


If you are asking about an all latex mattress vs a latex/polyfoam hybrid then outside there there is more about the general differences between them in post #2 here . Of course a latex/polyfoam hybrid can also have a significantly lower price than an all latex mattress.

There isn't a "formula" that can be used to assess or "calculate" the value of a mattress because there are so many different variables and criteria involved that can affect the price of a mattress that can each be more or less important to some people and not to others who may have completely different criteria or definitions of "value". The "value" of a mattress purchase is also relative to how a mattress compares to the other finalists you are considering or to other mattresses that are available to you in your area (or online if you are also considering online options) based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you. There are many reasons that a mattress that may be "good value" for one person or in one area of the country may not be good value for someone else that has very different needs and preferences or that lives in a different area.

I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don't involve what you will "feel" on a mattress, and help with "how" to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress, manufacturer, or combination of materials is "best for you" based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Once you have narrowed down your options to a list of finalists that are all choices between "good and good" and none of them have any lower quality materials or "weak links" in their design relative to your weight range and if there are no clear winners between them (which is usually a good indication that you have done some good research) then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing or mattresses you have slept well on, your more detailed conversations about each of them, your confidence about PPP and the suitability of each one, their prices, your preferences for different types of materials, the options you have after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or exchange or return the mattress or individual layers, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on "informed best judgement" based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
02 Jun 2015 22:14
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi rob2121,

Their naming format changes from time to time but Celsion was the same as what they used to call Talalay GL fast response and what Talalay Global is now calling their Talalay Active Fusion (Celsion). Their new web page here (click on products) still says that it's available in a slow response version even though they stopped making it. Perhaps they are thinking about making it again.

Phoenix
02 Jun 2015 21:13
  • rob2121
  • rob2121's Avatar
www.amazon.com/Pure-Latex-Bliss-Response-Activefusion/dp/B00AAHZ30U

it this the same thing as the Celsion?expensive! Im probably better off with the low response continuous pour Dunlop that is made by Latexco
24 Jan 2015 11:53
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi TwistedRoad,

After about 2 weeks of use, I'm very happy with the Spindle mattress. My wife isn't so happy. She tested out a Pure latex bliss nature and really liked that mattress with a 3" PLB topper, yet she was also okay with a Savvy rest bed that was soft/medium/medium.


The 3" topper on a Nature would certainly be softer than what you have now (the topper would be @ 15 ILD if it was the Active Fusion) but depending on the type of latex in the Savvy Rest you tried it would be closer to what you are currently sleeping on (at least in the top layers) so I'm not sure why your wife is feeling it as being softer.

I told her that I'd buy a topper so that she is satisfied. I'm thinking about getting a PBL topper since she liked it in the store. I'm not sure which topper it was (slow or fast), but it looks like their toppers tend to be around 14IDL (please correct me if I'm wrong).


They don't make the slow response any more so it would have been the fast response and if it was the Active Fusion then it would have been 15 ILD.

I was looking for other options too. It looks like sleep like a bear has a very soft talalay topper too (www.sleeplikeabear.com/product/TalaTech_...oam_3_inch_Queen.htm). Most other places seemed to have higher IDL toppers. I'd appreciate it if you could chime in if you know of any other low IDL toppers that I should consider.


The better sources for latex toppers I'm aware of are listed in the component post here and if you are interested in LI Talalay then both SLAB and KTT sell the complete range although KTT has lower prices.

Phoenix
07 Aug 2014 22:05
  • Goldilox
  • Goldilox's Avatar
Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for responding so quickly. I really appreciate your insightful feedback. I tried sleeping on just the mattress early on, and it was too firm. So I know I need a topper, but I'm not sure which material will suit my needs best. Turns out I'm not very fond of the "liveliness" of talalay latex, so I'm wondering if I should look into a dunlop latex topper. I heard it was less springy & more firm than talalay.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be opposed to adding a little bit of a sinking feeling to the mattress -- do you think a thin memory foam topper would work? Or would that feel weird on top of an all-talalay mattress?

Or should I try a talalay topper in a higher ILD than my current PLB topper. I think the one I have is a 14 ILD -- It's the blue one called Fast Response Active Fusion. Lastly, I saw that PLB makes a Slow Response topper. Maybe that would be a viable option as well.

I read the topper post you recommended, but I'm still a little overwhelmed with options. I would appreciate any more guidance you could offer. Thanks!
04 Jun 2014 12:12
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Clawdia,

I wrote that backwards - from AZmattress the ILD is 21 and from Plush Beds it's 23-28 - - not a big difference, but some.


Latex ILD's are never exact but the difference between 21 and 23 wouldn't be noticeable but most people would notice a difference between 21 (which would generally be considered to be soft) and 28 (which would be more in a medium range).

Which of their toppers is considered to be the "natural botanical latex", or does that include all of the really soft toppers of theirs?


Natural or "botanical" latex (same meaning) is latex where the raw materials are the latex "milk" that comes from the rubber tree that is then made into a foam using either the Dunlop or the Talalay method. Synthetic latex is made from a copolymer of Styrene and Butadiene. A blend would use a combination of both in some proportion. Latex International makes blended Talalay and 100% natural Talalay so their 100% natural would also be "botanical" meaning that other than the chemicals and compounds that are used to turn it into a foam ... that it only includes the raw latex used to make it that comes from the rubber tree. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here .

I'm looking for somewhere online who has a 3" PLB topper in stock, but have been confused over whether the ones with the fast Active Fusion would feel markedly different from the 100% natural one that I was actually able to try a few months ago.


The active fusion would be very similar to a blended Talalay latex in the same ILD but some people have commented that it feels a little "stiffer". The 100% natural from LI would be a little less pressure relieving, a little more "supportive" and a little less durable (at least in softer ILD's) than their blend. Both 100% natural and blended Talalay come in a wide range of firmness levels. They were making toppers with three materials (active fusion fast and slow response, and 100% natural Talalay) but of course they aren't making the active fusion slow response any longer.

Phoenix
04 Jun 2014 11:01
  • SallyS
  • SallyS's Avatar
Hi Clawdia,
From what I gathered yesterday, as the All Natural are my focus, they are covered in all creme/natural color cotton and are the very soft - the Active Fusion seem a smidge more firm to me. I don't know if it was the slow or fast response, had the blue panel in the center. I knew I didn't want it, but gave it a quick test - I preffered the all natural, but I would not say the difference is 'marked', however as you are as sensitive as I am, it's possible to tell the difference.

I don't know what size you are looking for,


themattressexpert.com/pure-latexbliss-toppers/ at the moment all sizes are listed
www.latexbliss.com/shop/toppers/natural
www.plushbeds.com/Natural-Latex-Mattress-Topper.html not the 'real deal' but oh so close

www.mattresses.net/3-inch-latex-mattress-topper.html the best I have seen on a three inch topper
01 Apr 2014 10:11
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Jeremy,

All of them are different forms of Talalay latex.

The "Natural" is made with a blend of 30% natural and 70% synthetic rubber.

The "All Natural" is made with natural rubber only and doesn't use any synthetic rubber in the formula. Post #2 here has more about the difference between 100% natural and blended talalay latex.

Active Fusion is what Latex International calls Talalay GL (and used to be called Celsion) and is blended Talalay with some phase change gel microparticles added to the formula to help with temperature regulation. It comes in a fast and slow response version (NOTE: they are no longer making the slow response version). While Talalay latex is already among the most breathable and temperature regulating of all the foam materials ... the phase change gel can add a slight benefit for those who feel they may need it (see post #2 here ).

The fast response is very similar to the blended Talalay in a similar ILD.

The slow response is also a blended Talalay but is made to have some of the delayed response and "feel" of memory foam and if you compress it the material leaves a hand print for a few seconds. (NOTE: this has now been discontinued).

Which one would be more comfortable would be a completely subjective choice.

Phoenix
01 Apr 2014 05:23
  • jeremy
  • jeremy's Avatar
Thank you for the info. I just tried a 2" topper at a local store made by Pure LatexBliss. After going to the Pure LatexBliss website, I'm curious what the differences are between their different toppers. They offer "Natural" vs "All Natural," and "Slow Response ActiveFUSION" vs. "Fast Response ActiveFUSION." Do you know what the differences are between these different toppers with regard to material make-up, comfort, durability, etc.? And what is ActiveFUSION?
30 Dec 2013 23:41
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Everready073,

Does anyone have any idea what ILD the Entice uses for the latex layers, or even what approximate firmness it is? It is a "1' on their plushness scale which is the firmest they have, but not sure how their "scale" compares to other brands I may be able to test locally.


As you probably know the Entice has 3" of Active Fusion slow response Talalay latex over 2" of Talalay latex over their 8" bonded core which is 10% latex and 90% polyfoam (see post #6 here ). I don't know the ILD of the layers (the active fusion slow response would be either 15 ILD or 21 ILD) but PLB would probably tell you if you are able to connect with them. The entice is a soft mattress and I believe is an 8 on their "plushness scale" not a 1 which they say on their site but is clearly a misprint. I believe that the Vitality (in their hybrid fast response line) and the Nutrition (in their natural Talalay line) are both listed as an 8 as well so you can use them as a reference although they both use fast response Talalay in the top layers.

The Active Fusion Slow Response topper is the same material and is 15 ILD so if the topper you tried was 3" then you would have a reasonable reference point once you are able to find out the ILD of the top 3" of the Entice although the layers underneath would also have an effect on how the combination feels so the comparison with the 3" topper on what was likely the Harmony (which has 3" of Active Fusion fast response Talalay over the bonded foam core) won't be exact.

Hopefully you will be able to connect with PLB and find out the ILD's but you could test the other 8's to at least get some sense of the relative firmness level.

Phoenix
20 Dec 2013 18:41
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi dmartin1910,

Are you saying the Talalay comfort layer on top is not 100% Talalay? I was ok with poly in the core, separated from my head by the comfort layer.....but are you saying the comfort layer isn't even 100% Talalay?


Foamed rubber is made using one of two main manufacturing methods. These are the Dunlop process and the Talalay process. Either one can use natural rubber (NR), synthetic rubber (SBR) or a blend of the two. So this is 100% Talalay (latex is either 100% Talalay or 100% Dunlop because it can only be made with one or the other methods of manufacturing) but it uses a blend of natural rubber (about 30%) and synthetic rubber (about 70%). You can read about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here . In the lower ILD's ... the blended Talalay would be a little more durable than 100% natural Talalay.

BTW, they accidentally delivered the wrong PLB mattress yesterday. It was the 9" mattress but no name was on it, but I'm thinking it was the Mezzanine, their cheapest hybrid. The tag, however, said 95% poly and 5% latex!! 1" out of 9" should be 12% latex is it's 100%. The core is obviously NOT 10% latex on this bed. The math doesn't work. This is making me furious!
And what if I hadn't complained? I would have paid $2600 for a $1300 mattress!!


The name of the mattress should be on the law tag. The Mezzanine is a 9" mattress that uses 1" of Active Fusion slow response Talalay latex (which has a slower response similar to memory foam) over an 8" bonded polyfoam/latex core. The law tag states the materials based on the percentage weight (not the percentage thickness) so the thickness would depend on which of the materials was heavier (which is normally the latex). All their bonded cores are 90% polyurethane and 10% latex (bonded together in a resin) but would be listed under polyurethane (which is what it is primarily) and the 5% would be the listing for the 1" layer of latex on the top. The Harmony is also a 9" mattress but it has 3" of Active Fusion fast response Talalay latex and a 6" core so based on the percentages this wouldn't be what you have.

Which mattress and what size did you buy ... and was it mattress only or a set?

I would definitely call them and have them correct their delivery error.

Phoenix
16 Nov 2013 15:58
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi julieward,

Any downsides I should be aware of with the topper plan?


I would keep in mind that any topper used over memory foam will reduce the amount of heat that reaches the memory foam and either slow down or reduce the softening of the memory foam underneath the topper. This means that you will have both a softening effect (from the topper) and a firming effect (from the reduction of the heat that reaches the memory foam) that will combine together in your final result and how the combination feels and performs. It's always a good idea if at all possible to test a specific mattress / topper combination (or something very similar) in person so you have a reference point for how they will feel together.

You talk alot about ILDs. Should I be concerned about them?


ILD / IFD with memory foam is not particular meaningful because it changes with temperature, humidity, and the length of time the memory foam is compressed. With local testing of a specific mattress / topper combination then ILD is also not important because your body will tell you how well the combination works for you although it's still important to know the type and quality/durability of the material. If you are ordering online then knowing the specific ILD of a topper you test may be more important so you can order a topper that is as close as possible to the thickness and softness of the topper you tested that you know works best for you.

PLB has several different versions of their topper in both 2" and 3" thicknesses. The Active Fusion fast response toppers are 15 ILD. The blended talalay topper is 14 ILD. The N1 100% natural Talalay topper is in the mid - upper teens (they don't have a specific ILD rating).

Also, I see a Harmony model on the floor of my retailer but it's discontinued on the PLB site. If this is an old model, should I expect a price reduction from the $2200/set I see on Amazon?


If you are buying a floor model then yes I would expect a discount because it's a "used" mattress and generally wouldn't have a warranty. If it's in stock then it would depend entirely on the retailer and on how much or how quickly they wanted to sell their stock. You can read more about "negotiating" prices in post #6 here but each retailer would have different circumstances. It never hurts to ask. I'm not sure if they are actually discontinued or just aren't on their site.

Where would you guess my retailer will get it if they can't get it from PLB?


If your retailer is an authorized dealer for PLB then that would be where they are buying it from.

I'm trying to get them to join your membership. Phoenix--I just don't know how you do all this? Thanks much!


Thanks for the help :).

I would also keep in mind though that the membership here is by invitation only and that not all retailers or manufacturers that may want to join would qualify for membership or be invited (and not all that I would be happy to invite may want to become members). Having said that ... I'm always happy to talk about membership to find out if they fit the profile and criteria I use and that they are as comfortable with me as I am with them. Membership is usually a "side effect" of ongoing conversations to one degree or another.

Phoenix
15 Nov 2013 20:09
  • phoenix
  • phoenix's Avatar
Hi Ken83,

There's no doubt this combo was softer and more plush than the Nature, but it was firmer in ways too. For instance, by sitting on the edge of the beds, there was less overall sag in the Pamper+Topper than the Nature. Also, the overall combo had a "deader" feeling than the Nature by itself, so I think there would be less motion transfer between sleepers. I'm not sure if the deader feeling is due to the ILD 40 core, or the separate mattress & topper, but probably a combo of both. And again the combo felt softer and more comfortable than the even thicker PLB Beautiful (12" latex with 6" comfort layer), but also firmer, weird. Anyway, I hope my positive impressions remain after we get the combo in our house and sleep on it!

I asked the salesman (owner) at Siesta about the slow response, and he said he had one in the store earlier and didn't like it. I'm not sure about the other toppers that PLB sells, my focus last night was "order one in Cal King exactly like this!". I didn't detect any smell, but the topper looked a little worn so it was probably in the store for a while. It did have a blue cover, and a label "pure LatexBLISS active fusion climate control".

Now, I would have thought this would be too soft for me based on the ILD 15 spec, and a strange match with the Pamper (combo total with 4" of soft ILD15 & 21 then right into a super firm ILD 40), but it seemed to work great FOR ME.


This would be a good example of what I call a "differential" construction where there is a thicker comfort layer (or layers) and then a support layer that is much firmer. If the softer comfort layers are thick enough then they will isolate you from the firmness of the support core and give you the combination you are feeling with "very soft" on top but "firm stability" underneath. It'a kind of a contrast that many people like. Using a topper (which "acts" softer than the same layer inside a mattress) would accentuate this even more. This thread has a discussion about the same thing with some similar "difficult to describe" comments to yours about the difference between a mattress / topper combination and the same layers inside a mattress (although with a different mattress than yours).

Thanks for sharing some great insights and feedback ... and congratulations on your new mattress / sleeping system :)

Phoenix
15 Nov 2013 17:26
  • Ken83
  • Ken83's Avatar

Ken83,

Can you describe how your 2" talalay GL fast response feels? Is it soft enough for you and do you feel support as well? Did you also try the slow response? Any odors from this topper?

Thanks,
Diane


Hi Diane,

I actually went into the store last night after several weeks of shopping for a mattress, intent on buying the PLB "Nature" - a medium firmness 10" Latex mattress (6" ILD 36, 2" ILD 28, 2" ILD 21). We've been to Sleepy's, Jordans, Gardner, Spindle, and Siesta, trying many of their mattresses. I found many good choices, but all with compromises, and had settled on the PLB Nature.

I saw they had a PLB topper, and decided to try that on the "Pamper", which is a firm mattress (6" of ILD 40 support with only 2" of ILD 21 as the comfort layer). Wow, I instantly loved that combo. The topper is soft & plush, springy like latex, and not like memory foam. The topper cover was a slightly loose fitting soft cover (cotton?) with a subtle small quilting. This cover had much more "give" than the tighter and firmer cover on the PLB mattress, and I think that contributed to a softer feel, much more like being right on top of the latex.

There's no doubt this combo was softer and more plush than the Nature, but it was firmer in ways too. For instance, by sitting on the edge of the beds, there was less overall sag in the Pamper+Topper than the Nature. Also, the overall combo had a "deader" feeling than the Nature by itself, so I think there would be less motion transfer between sleepers. I'm not sure if the deader feeling is due to the ILD 40 core, or the separate mattress & topper, but probably a combo of both. And again the combo felt softer and more comfortable than the even thicker PLB Beautiful (12" latex with 6" comfort layer), but also firmer, weird. Anyway, I hope my positive impressions remain after we get the combo in our house and sleep on it!

I asked the salesman (owner) at Siesta about the slow response, and he said he had one in the store earlier and didn't like it. I'm not sure about the other toppers that PLB sells, my focus last night was "order one in Cal King exactly like this!". I didn't detect any smell, but the topper looked a little worn so it was probably in the store for a while. It did have a blue cover, and a label "pure LatexBLISS active fusion climate control".

Now, I would have thought this would be too soft for me based on the ILD 15 spec, and a strange match with the Pamper (combo total with 4" of soft ILD15 & 21 then right into a super firm ILD 40), but it seemed to work great FOR ME.

Also, this topper by itself is very soft - you could easily fold whole thing in half. I'm mostly a side sleeper, wider at the shoulder and narrower in the waist. The topper allowed my shoulders to sink in further, but it still supported me at my waist. However, with the combo topper/Pamper, I did lose a little needed support at my hips when lying on my back (a small amount of the hammock effect over the "Nature" without the topper)

I hope this helps,

Ken
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