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Giving up on Latex 07 Sep 2022 08:15 #1

  • datrumole
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well, at least as a comfort layer

i cannot seem to get it right. i carry a lot of weight in the hip/butt (vball player, lots of squats in my past), and no matter the combination, that area sinks more than the rest and destroys my back. it's not completely hammocking, its that my butt goes down, but the pushback of the latex pushes up on my back in a weird way. causes my hips to rotate and its just uncomfortable. i'm not interested in zoning as i already had a bodyguard mattress and the zoning caused a host of different issues

i'm finding that there is a lot more to the thickness of the comfort layers, for me, i firmly believe it's the amount of travel my heavier areas are allowed to push. so folks reading this, if you are heavier (i'm 210, 6') keep that in mind. in order to keep you 'flat' you eventually need to hit a layer that 'stops' the travel. latex doesnt seem to give me that ability to do so

here is what i have tried, bottom --> top, d = dunlop, t = talalay, all 3" unless stated otherwise

34d/34d/28t = very comfortable, back hurt
44d/34d/28t = very comfortable, back hurt
44d/36d/34d = supportive, thought we had a winner, back still hurt
44d/44d/36d = firm as heck, however, i finally felt like my butt wasn't sinking in as much and had a winner. then i started waking up with a stiff neck, sore shoulders/hips, and eventually lower back pain yet again (this was the best in terms of controlling the 'butt sink')
44d/44d/36d/28t (2") = loving the comfort, too much travel, back hurt

44d/44d/28t (2") = reduced the travel, i think this is how i'm finding more about the thicker layers aren't always better. still woke up with back pain
44d/36d/28t (2") = more comfortable for sure, same back pain

at this point i'm at a crossroads, the only other thing i'd consider trying is the following. i had success for 5y on a memory foam mattress prior to this, so i know my body plays well with it

44d/44d/36d 2"/(19d or 32d 1" from SOL) the thinking here is going with the one i knew was pretty good, just lacked some comfort, but again, still fearful of latex

so, without starting over, my new thought is this, and confirmation from folks here

44d/44d or 36d/2" 4lb or 5lb memory foam/1" 19d or 34d from SOL. thinking here to reduce the heat from the memory foam, add a little comfort from the feel of latex (which i love) but then the properties that memory foam brings to the table

questions:
44d or 36d in my transition layer, leaving toward the 44d to just keep the support there
4lb vs 5lb memory foam, thoughts? is it just the durability?
i'll probably just audition the 1" comfort layer, but the question is, is SOL the only supplier for 1"? i know i'll blast through the 19d at my weight, but the only next step up is 34d

thanks all!

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Giving up on Latex 08 Sep 2022 12:06 #2

  • NikkiTMU
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Hi datrumole.

I wish I had a great answer here that would help. My immediate thought was you require zoning in the hips, but you've stated here that you're not interested in zoning. What happens if you attempt to firm the mattress up underneath (like, extra support under the mattress with a plank or something to that effect)?

I'm hoping our other DIYers will chime in with their thoughts and trial/error experiences to help you throw more ideas around. Could a firmer transition layer be the answer?

NikkiTMU
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Giving up on Latex 09 Sep 2022 08:26 #3

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Hi datrumole.

I wish I had a great answer here that would help. My immediate thought was you require zoning in the hips, but you've stated here that you're not interested in zoning. What happens if you attempt to firm the mattress up underneath (like, extra support under the mattress with a plank or something to that effect)?

I'm hoping our other DIYers will chime in with their thoughts and trial/error experiences to help you throw more ideas around. Could a firmer transition layer be the answer?

NikkiTMU


yeah, thanks

i think the only thing was wanting to try was doing my 44d/44d/2" 36d/1" 19d or 34d (limited options in the 1" availability)

thinking that i need to limit my travel, but also have some comfort

but i'm done with all the return shipping, and i'm pretty much out of 'free one time returns per year'

i just stole my parents trundle bed $250 mattress, it's a crummy little 6" spring and 2" memory foam, put it on top of my 44d layer, and it was much improved. is it more comfortable than latex, no, i WANT latex to work, but did my back finally not ache, yes, and right now thats what i'm after

so that said, seems like there is limited memory foam knowledge on this forum as latex seems to work for a lot of people, it gets recommended by most, and there isnt much real world experience with the memory foam diy builds

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Giving up on Latex 09 Sep 2022 09:50 #4

  • Mattrebuild
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well, at least as a comfort layer

i cannot seem to get it right. i carry a lot of weight in the hip/butt (vball player, lots of squats in my past), and no matter the combination, that area sinks more than the rest and destroys my back. it's not completely hammocking, its that my butt goes down, but the pushback of the latex pushes up on my back in a weird way. causes my hips to rotate and its just uncomfortable. i'm not interested in zoning as i already had a bodyguard mattress and the zoning caused a host of different issues


That bodyguard mattress you had was fixed zoning (see below) which is not good at all for someone like yourself that has a difficult time getting mattresses to work for you. Also with a BMI near 30 (5"11, 210lbs) and what sounds like a curvy body shape (same situation I was in) I would be very surprised if you could find the perfect combo for you without zoning. What you need is a layer that allows variable zoning (completely customizable, so you can change out the sections to your own liking) such as the V-zone layer (see below) offered by Flobeds. I would start with a medium V-zone for your height/weight and Flobeds will send you new sections with different firmnesses to try if you find you need them. You also aren't limited to just using talalay latex layers in the zoning, I've used dunlop and polyfoams in there as well with great success where I needed more support in certain areas. I know it's probably not what you wanted to hear but I've already been down the same road you are with trying millions of layer combinations and still not finding anything that worked. It wasn't until I finally bit the bullet and tried the V-zone layer and then went through the same trial and error process with that that I was finally able to get my current mattress that works great for both my wife and I.

Bodyguard


V-zone (top layer on mattress)

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Giving up on Latex 09 Sep 2022 21:54 #5

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well, at least as a comfort layer

i cannot seem to get it right. i carry a lot of weight in the hip/butt (vball player, lots of squats in my past), and no matter the combination, that area sinks more than the rest and destroys my back. it's not completely hammocking, its that my butt goes down, but the pushback of the latex pushes up on my back in a weird way. causes my hips to rotate and its just uncomfortable. i'm not interested in zoning as i already had a bodyguard mattress and the zoning caused a host of different issues


That bodyguard mattress you had was fixed zoning (see below) which is not good at all for someone like yourself that has a difficult time getting mattresses to work for you. Also with a BMI near 30 (5"11, 210lbs) and what sounds like a curvy body shape (same situation I was in) I would be very surprised if you could find the perfect combo for you without zoning. What you need is a layer that allows variable zoning (completely customizable, so you can change out the sections to your own liking) such as the V-zone layer (see below) offered by Flobeds. I would start with a medium V-zone for your height/weight and Flobeds will send you new sections with different firmnesses to try if you find you need them. You also aren't limited to just using talalay latex layers in the zoning, I've used dunlop and polyfoams in there as well with great success where I needed more support in certain areas. I know it's probably not what you wanted to hear but I've already been down the same road you are with trying millions of layer combinations and still not finding anything that worked. It wasn't until I finally bit the bullet and tried the V-zone layer and then went through the same trial and error process with that that I was finally able to get my current mattress that works great for both my wife and I.


mattre, my dude!

yeah, thanks for chiming in, feels like we are on a similar journey good sir

i went through most of your suggestions, increasing layers to 4, shit i even went to 2 at one point, went from the firmest latex would allow, from honestly some of the softest. i just, couldnt, get, it, to, work

i dont blame anyone, i get it, latex is amazing, changed my wifes life in how she sleeps (paired with wool comforters, and linen sheets/duvets), so huge win there!

it's almost that latex is too perfect/consistent that it is it's down fall for me. i truly need something that hits a certain distance traveled, and stop. and i'm sure i can dial that in with vzones, but its been 2y, and not a night has gone by where my back hasn't been messed up

my most recent back episode had me calling out of work for 2d, i could barely walk, no joke

so i just cant do more testing, one more night one more night, ok no, shipping, waiting, new thing, one more night one more night....my back is exhausted

i'm 100% ready to try the zoning next time around, but now i need a win, ya know? i just stole a mattress my parents got for their trundle bed for the grandkids. $250 mattress, 6" springs, 2" memory foam. threw it on top of my 44 dunlop, instant improvement on my back. granted it's a stop gap, but just literally moving to mem. foam got me back on my feet. so i know it works, and yeah, it has downsides, but my back for whatever reason instantly agrees. no zoning, no 3-4 nights of guessing, hoping my back wakes up one day and agrees. instant relief, night 1

so my thought being memory foam, paired with a latex support layer, i'm happy to dole out 1-200 every 4-5y to just re-up my memory foam layer while my latex lasts (hopefully) 20y. and maybe when the mem foam dies this next round, i'm energized with a new found motivation to try some vzones

again, thanks for the help, just need to move into something that i know works, ready to experiment more next battle

that said, any help on sourcing some memory foam, what an absolute crap shoot right now, heck even tempur isnt even viable anymore

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Giving up on Latex 13 Sep 2022 02:49 #6

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More detail would be helpful for some of the combinations you listed. Where is the back pain (lumbar, other?). Are you sinking in too much or too little? Does the discomfort show up within an couple hours of laying on the bed or does it show up sometime early morning?


Any of the combinations give you good spinal alignment but maybe the comfort/pressure relief is slightly off? Any chance you have a muscle imbalance/tightness causing pelvic tilt?

“44d/36d/34d = supportive, thought we had a winner, back still hurt”

What happened here? Still sink in too much? Able to fall asleep for a while but then wake up in the middle of the night?

“44d/44d/28t (2") = reduced the travel, i think this is how i'm finding more about the thicker layers aren't always better. still woke up with back pain”

What is going on here? Still sinking in too much or not enough? If not enough, what happens if you try 44d/44d/28t (2") / 36D?

“44d/44d/36d 2"/(19d or 32d 1" from SOL) the thinking here is going with the one i knew was pretty good, just lacked some comfort, but again, still fearful of latex”

19ild is too soft at your size. Forget that. Something around 32ild might be appropriate if you are easily pushing through the 28T. However, if 44/44/36 felt “firm as heck” you are probably going to need more than 1”.

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Giving up on Latex 14 Sep 2022 10:52 #7

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More detail would be helpful for some of the combinations you listed. Where is the back pain (lumbar, other?). Are you sinking in too much or too little? Does the discomfort show up within an couple hours of laying on the bed or does it show up sometime early morning?


Any of the combinations give you good spinal alignment but maybe the comfort/pressure relief is slightly off? Any chance you have a muscle imbalance/tightness causing pelvic tilt?


i've found many of the combinations except for 44/44/36 to be exceptional in comfort (that one hurt)

i've love to think i have some sort of issue but after sleeping in other beds, or passing out on my couch one night to have ZERO back pain the next morning, i'm attributing things to the latex

“44d/36d/34d = supportive, thought we had a winner, back still hurt”

What happened here? Still sink in too much? Able to fall asleep for a while but then wake up in the middle of the night?


i dont know how best to describe it. when i lay on my back, everything is nice and comfortable for the most part, however i can feel this sort of pressure initially in the lowest part of my back. my butt sinks just a little too far, pushing the butt down, which then bends the back, the space formed in the lower back is then filled with latex which pushes up on it since it's not heavy enough to sink it. the way i can maybe describe it, is stand up, and try and push the top of your butt up, and that is how it feels on my back. so it's not hammocking, its just bending by back upward

it's not uncommon for my back to be a little tender when i first lay, so after laying for a bit longer, i'll start to feel a very slight discomfort (say an hour or two of watching tv on my back). then in the morning, same, it's a slight discomfort that follows me around for the day, same spot, lower back. falling asleep i will turn on my side, and it feels all good, or so i think, but still in pain in the morning in the same spot

i believe this has to do with the travel the comfort layers allow my butt to sink before hitting a layer that stops it. which is why i tried dunlop. was hoping that the initial softer part of the dunlop would then start to firm up quicker than talalay, stopping the butt travel, however the butt travel is still further than the rest of the body. i dont carry a ton of weight in my upper body, so it doesnt push the same latex travel, thus my lighter upper body is higher than my lower body just due to the weight imbalance. so they arent 'flat'. so if i keep going up in ILD, the closer i get to flat, but increase discomfort due to how firm

it's almost a math problem. the latex takes on X weight and sinks Y distance. well what happens when a given bodys weight distribution isn't somewhat consistent, meaning the difference in Y travel is a certain +/- away from one another. as body types change and weight distribution changes, and the +/- distance grows, you'll exceed a given tolerance the body can accept before it hurts. so large variances create too large of a variance in Y travel, and then you generate pain. so for certain body types you'll never actually be in 'tolerance flat' on latex without zoning if the weight variances are large

“44d/44d/28t (2") = reduced the travel, i think this is how i'm finding more about the thicker layers aren't always better. still woke up with back pain”

What is going on here? Still sinking in too much or not enough? If not enough, what happens if you try 44d/44d/28t (2") / 36D?

“44d/44d/36d 2"/(19d or 32d 1" from SOL) the thinking here is going with the one i knew was pretty good, just lacked some comfort, but again, still fearful of latex”

19ild is too soft at your size. Forget that. Something around 32ild might be appropriate if you are easily pushing through the 28T. However, if 44/44/36 felt “firm as heck” you are probably going to need more than 1”.

[/quote]


no matter the combo, the end effect is the same, butt sinks just slightly too far, bends back after rotating the hips a touch forward

i tried just laying on 44/44, and i was like WOW finally a layer combination that is heavy enough to prevent the butt sink. so i was like ok, so now i just need to do a little bit of comfort and i'll be all set, but giving up, i'm out of patience and out of free returns, and pocket is already hurting from all the return shipping

i've already spent a week on the crummiest mattress i could get my hands on while i wait on new layers of memory foam and finalize my 44/44 latex base. it's a $250 mattress with 6" coils and 2" memory foam, and i'm already improved compared to every latex combination ive tried thus far. it's not perfect by any means, but the pain caused by the latex is slowly subsiding, bending in the morning and through the day is finally almost gone

non-zoned latex just isnt for me i suppose

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Giving up on Latex 18 Sep 2022 01:45 #8

  • BillyIdol
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Try Air Pedic. 3 zones for air bed. Control firmness under hips.

Go look at airweave.com and look under science articles. Look for lower bacl xrays. This is what is happening with your back.

John

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