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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 26 Mar 2022 12:50 #11

What has been an absolute godsend for me in tuning my bed precisely, and therefore avoiding back pain by getting support just exactly right, is not just what's in the mattress, but what's under it. I have one of those European slat systems. Bendy wood with little rubber sliders that let you set firmness distinctly every 5 inches or so.

First I get the tuning just right, lying in various positions and seeing if I'm more comfortable with things more or less elevated, then marking the spot I want to adjust up or down with my finger, getting off the bed, and tuning that spot, then repeat.

As the mattress wears, I can extend its useful life to me by adjusting the tuning to compensate.

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 26 Mar 2022 22:22 #12

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I don't know why I just remembered this, at one point I had

34 SOL dun x2, 28 tal, and it was too stiff

which is why I'm perhaps questioning the 36 addition

however I did not have the 22ild the last time, so maybe that's how it helps?


Not sure I follow. Didn't you mention above in your first post that 34D/28T/28T caused hammocking?

When you design a mattress you usually want it to be progressive (the harder you push the more support it provides). This support needs to be matched to your body weight and BMI or you can end up with issues as you've seen. The key is to always make sure you have enough support first then add the comfort part after to tweak the mattress for your liking. Most do the reverse and quikly find out it didn't work quite as well as they thought it might.

So if you got a layer of 36T you then have several options (see below) with the worst case being you need to get one more 32T layer later. Considering hammocking is a problem I would err on providing proper support first then make additional purchases/adjustments as needed. Finally you can add in a zoning layer as well if you can't get any of the standard combos to work.

Options
36T/34D/28T/22T
36T/34D/28T/28T
36T/34D/28T
36T/28T/28T
36T/28T/22T
36T/34D/22T


thank you, and apologies

my current configuration is 34d/28t/28t, and for some reason, literally been so long on this journey, that i just remembered that at one point i had a 34d/34d/28t and it was a touch too hard

so i feel like right now that a potentially stiffer than 34/34 with 36t/34d/28t leaves me with one real option 36t/34d/24t, and maybe thats the one, who knows

i suppose i can start at 36t, and always exchange it for 32t, and move to a xfirm/34d/32t/(24/28). do you think in that scenario, in lieu of the cost of latex, that i could use a 50lb foam as the xfirm layer is a feasible option?


datrumole, I am in a similar situation and somewhat remember your previous thread.

if you struck out with your previous 3 layer configurations the only one left might be 34/34/comfort layer. But the more likely resolution is to go to 4 layers as mattrebuild suggested. If might seem counter intuitive given your previous experience, but a firmer 4th layer at the bottom will provide the softness/travel you are looking for while simultaneously maintain support. I think the question becomes do you go with something like

44/36/32/19-24 comfort layer

or

44/32/32/19-24 comfort layer

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 26 Mar 2022 22:32 #13

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sorry that second one should be 36/32/32/comfort layer

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 28 Mar 2022 17:59 #14

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I would caution against just using ILD to compare the layers. Talalay feels very different than dunlop (I spent quite a bit on SOL dunlop layers before realizing this). So you may find that the 36t/34d/28t actually feels softer (still firm yet conforming) than the 34d/34t/28t simply because it allows for more travel. Mysuggestion would be if the 36T alone still feels a tad bit hard (but is better than the 34d/34d/28t) then get the 32T to add to the stack instead of just exchanging it. Can't help you on the foam sustitution but it may make it harder to troubleshoot if it doesn't end up working well for you. Good bedding materials aren't cheap but then I always ask myself in the end what's a good night's sleep really worth?


truth, i just feel like i'm so close, i'm sleeping great, but i can feel it's literally on the cusp of right where i need it

question, i've often seen dunlop described as feeling about 4ild firmer than talalay (actually, pulled from APM's website: "Available in Firm #36 ILD but when compared to Talalay latex feels more like #40 ILD")

so do you think i could do the configuration as 34d/36t/(22|28) if the statement above is somewhat accurate, that would mean it'd be closely equivalent to 38t/36t/(22|28)

reason i ask is i'd need to cut the 34d since it's a king right now. in your suggestion, of 36t/34d/(22|28) it'd be my second layer, but my wife's first (34d/28t/24t), so they'd be on different planes

datrumole, I am in a similar situation and somewhat remember your previous thread.

if you struck out with your previous 3 layer configurations the only one left might be 34/34/comfort layer. But the more likely resolution is to go to 4 layers as mattrebuild suggested. If might seem counter intuitive given your previous experience, but a firmer 4th layer at the bottom will provide the softness/travel you are looking for while simultaneously maintain support. I think the question becomes do you go with something like

44/36/32/19-24 comfort layer

or

44/32/32/19-24 comfort layer


yeah, we are very much on the same journey it seems. i'd love to just start over with my knowledge now and do exactly as matrebuild suggested, however i'm hopeful i can get a configuration that works for the next 6-8y and i can revisit then

so right now i'm going to head to 36t/34d/(22|28t) and if that doesnt work, exchange the 36 for a 32, and get an xfirm for a 44t/34d/32t/(22|28t)

however, who even sells 44ild talalay?

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 29 Mar 2022 03:08 #15

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No one I know regularly stocks talalay that firm so you would have to find a vendor willing to order it for you. Don't know that it matters that much at 44ild though. Maybe just grab Dunlop? A 4th layer by itself will add more travel and, unfortunately, more complexity.


Separately I will say I had some progress with odd configurations. Working with what I have on hand....F Dunlop /Med Talalay/soft Talalay/ med firm Dunlop, bottom to top, led to impeccable spinal alignment. Firmer than I would like but tolerable. Will be picking up more latex to see if I can improve softness but maintain alignment.

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 29 Mar 2022 13:00 #16

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truth, i just feel like i'm so close, i'm sleeping great, but i can feel it's literally on the cusp of right where i need it

question, i've often seen dunlop described as feeling about 4ild firmer than talalay (actually, pulled from APM's website: "Available in Firm #36 ILD but when compared to Talalay latex feels more like #40 ILD")

so do you think i could do the configuration as 34d/36t/(22|28) if the statement above is somewhat accurate, that would mean it'd be closely equivalent to 38t/36t/(22|28)

reason i ask is i'd need to cut the 34d since it's a king right now. in your suggestion, of 36t/34d/(22|28) it'd be my second layer, but my wife's first (34d/28t/24t), so they'd be on different planes


The good news is it sounds like you're close but obviously you want to minimize your investment if possible and being smart about your choices can help you do that. Remember that talalay and dunlop have very different response curves so the idea of dunlop feeling firmer is relative to how much pressure you're applying. At lighter weights dunlop actually feels softer than talalay for the same ILD rating and obviously vice versa at higher weights (dunlop firms up faster than talalay the more you push into it). The bigger question is which is the better design choice? Again that depends on what you're trying to solve. If you are only trying to firm up the mattress and you aren't particularly concerned with travel (curvy folks with wider shoulders/hips/rear) then dunlop may work fine but if that is also a concern then dunlop won't give you the benefit of increased travel/firmness at the same time like talalay will. It's not that one's better than the other, you just need to know when to use each material and how it will affect your design. My suggestion would be to cut the 34D in half (electric carving knife) and then you can play around with the 36T without affecting your wife's side at all. Then from there you can look at what you need to adjust to dial your mattress in further to your liking.

Look at page 16-17 and it shows all the talalay types and ILDs available from the supplier.
(19/22/28/32/36 ILD are all pretty common but 40 X-firm and 44 S-firm are usually special order)
online.flippingbook.com/view/734920800/18/

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 30 Mar 2022 13:39 #17

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No one I know regularly stocks talalay that firm so you would have to find a vendor willing to order it for you. Don't know that it matters that much at 44ild though. Maybe just grab Dunlop? A 4th layer by itself will add more travel and, unfortunately, more complexity.


Separately I will say I had some progress with odd configurations. Working with what I have on hand....F Dunlop /Med Talalay/soft Talalay/ med firm Dunlop, bottom to top, led to impeccable spinal alignment. Firmer than I would like but tolerable. Will be picking up more latex to see if I can improve softness but maintain alignment.


ah, so you went 4 layer as well, just ordered up the 36t

got the 34d cut, and did a 34d/34d/24t (really closer to 22 based on measurement on sticket) and it feels nice, but i can see where adding some further firmness to it will help

its almost like you need the top layer to just soak you in, and hit a layer thats firm enough to not really move, but also not be a brick

the whole thing is very weird playing with all the layers, and how each configuration produces it's own thing

stinks the first time through, but i'm at least confident down the road when i'm just replacing comfort layers i'll be pleased i went through some of these pains to dial it in

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 30 Mar 2022 13:45 #18

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The good news is it sounds like you're close but obviously you want to minimize your investment if possible and being smart about your choices can help you do that. Remember that talalay and dunlop have very different response curves so the idea of dunlop feeling firmer is relative to how much pressure you're applying. At lighter weights dunlop actually feels softer than talalay for the same ILD rating and obviously vice versa at higher weights (dunlop firms up faster than talalay the more you push into it). The bigger question is which is the better design choice? Again that depends on what you're trying to solve. If you are only trying to firm up the mattress and you aren't particularly concerned with travel (curvy folks with wider shoulders/hips/rear) then dunlop may work fine but if that is also a concern then dunlop won't give you the benefit of increased travel/firmness at the same time like talalay will. It's not that one's better than the other, you just need to know when to use each material and how it will affect your design. My suggestion would be to cut the 34D in half (electric carving knife) and then you can play around with the 36T without affecting your wife's side at all. Then from there you can look at what you need to adjust to dial your mattress in further to your liking.

Look at page 16-17 and it shows all the talalay types and ILDs available from the supplier.
(19/22/28/32/36 ILD are all pretty common but 40 X-firm and 44 S-firm are usually special order)
online.flippingbook.com/view/734920800/18/


thanks so much for your help! ordered up the 36, had the local spot cut my 34d in half, and hopefully it get's here relatively quick and i can get to testing out some of the configs

will report back, great community here!

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 31 Mar 2022 07:09 #19

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ah, so you went 4 layer as well, just ordered up the 36t

got the 34d cut, and did a 34d/34d/24t (really closer to 22 based on measurement on sticket) and it feels nice, but i can see where adding some further firmness to it will help

its almost like you need the top layer to just soak you in, and hit a layer thats firm enough to not really move, but also not be a brick

the whole thing is very weird playing with all the layers, and how each configuration produces it's own thing

stinks the first time through, but i'm at least confident down the road when i'm just replacing comfort layers i'll be pleased i went through some of these pains to dial it in


From a design standpoint ideally you want the top layer to provide primarily pressure relief (hence why they call it a comfort layer) and the lower layers provide your alignment (hence being called support layers). In the real world it doesn't always work out eaxctly like this (ie the layers all work together to provide both alignment and pressure relief). The problem comes as you've noted when people try to make the layers do too much (expecting the comfort layer to add significant alignment or support layers to add significant pressure relief). This is why you move up in the number of layers to achieve your goal (ie 3 layers vs 4 layers vs 5 layers). The heavier and more curvy you are, the more layers you're likely to need to make it work. This is also why you might chose dunlop or talalay depending on what you need it to do in your design. Again it's not a case of more layers is always better (you always want the simplest design that works for you) but again if you try to do too much with too few layers the foam material limitations will prevent you from getting it tailored perfectly for your liking. Hope this makes sense.

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DIY Latex Build Somehow Still Too Unsupportive 01 Apr 2022 08:02 #20

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From a design standpoint ideally you want the top layer to provide primarily pressure relief (hence why they call it a comfort layer) and the lower layers provide your alignment (hence being called support layers). In the real world it doesn't always work out eaxctly like this (ie the layers all work together to provide both alignment and pressure relief). The problem comes as you've noted when people try to make the layers do too much (expecting the comfort layer to add significant alignment or support layers to add significant pressure relief). This is why you move up in the number of layers to achieve your goal (ie 3 layers vs 4 layers vs 5 layers). The heavier and more curvy you are, the more layers you're likely to need to make it work. This is also why you might chose dunlop or talalay depending on what you need it to do in your design. Again it's not a case of more layers is always better (you always want the simplest design that works for you) but again if you try to do too much with too few layers the foam material limitations will prevent you from getting it tailored perfectly for your liking. Hope this makes sense.


i dont 100% get it, but i get what your saying (if that makes sense)

there are so many design variables, it makes it really challenging, but also fun to learn about, but also frustrating with limited DIY sourcing options for most folk (especially here on the east coast)

you rely so much on heresy on forums trying to gather enough information to make intelligent choices without having seen/touch/felt anything. and you have people who can literally sleep on anything (my wife) and you'll read their weight and height, not realizing their build is super soft, but it doesnt bother them vs me who's got an INSANELY temperamental back (have degenerative disc disease)

it would be a lot easier if there was a show room with all the different talalay and dunlop layers under one roof, and you got to just mix, match, and play a bit. granted you still may not get it right on the first try, but you'd be a lot closer the first time around

after now 3 nights on 34d/34d/24t, my back is SIGNIFICANTLY happier. so i'm confident the 36 layer will add a touch more support, and we might be off and running! which i'm super excited about, so thank you! i would have 100% ordered a 32t which wouldn't have fixed anything

right now the thing for me that seems to be the biggest design challenge is, my butt/hips are just way heavier than my upper body, so i just dont know how you design around that. thats why i was thinking that the upper most layer has to be soft enough so that all the body parts sink to the same plane else you are already creating a hammock in a way just in the first 3 inches. heck maybe for heavier people, a 3" topper might not be best, perhaps a 2" super soft, and a 2" med-firm. sink through the top and get everything down to the same plane, then start to hit the support

if i had to start over, i'd honestly be eyeing: 6" 36(t or d) / 2" 32t/ 2" 24t

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