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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 11 Jan 2022 12:20 #31

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Dunlop and talalay have very different characteristics so if you are experiencing conformity issues (ie your body parts don't travel into the mattress enough to allow support in other areas) then you should be sticking to talaay layers only. If you and your wife tried a firmer dunlop bed and hated it I can can tell you talalay in a similar firmness will feel completely different. That other mattress wasn't very deep either so my suggestion would be to aim for an 11-12" mattress to give you enough travel to provide the support you need. Now I'm not saying you can always fix deflection issues with simply changing layer materials from dunlop to talalay (mine was a good example of this where even with a deeper mattress I had to resort to an expensive solution such as zoning) but I can say it would be a big mistake to only base your support layer decisions on experience with dunlop alone. If you wanted to try bare bones you could got down to a 19T/32T/36T for your side and see how that feels. You could also do some basic zoning with a 19T or 28T (in the 32ILD layer) depending on what areas were causing issues. Lots of possibilities anyway.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 11 Jan 2022 20:40 #32

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Made some other progress with testing:

3" 36 + 3" 28 + 4" 19 = same if not worse mid back hammocking pain. So it doesn't look like softer is the answer.

agreed.

3" 36 + 3" 19 + 3" 28 = the support seemed much better on top, but woke up many times through the night with a different pain like my back was hammocking the other way and had a pressure point at the low spot of my side. I'm wondering if that soft under the medium is allowing too much contouring to the point of causing hot spots. Fit was tight against my side.


I am not clear what you mean when you say your back was "hammocking the other way?"

Separately, hot spots could be from having firmer latex on top. Although it may be more supportive, the tradeoff is less pressure relief.


I did briefly try the 28 folded over with the 36 below and I thought it felt pretty good. Couldn't lay on it long enough to tell though. I'll try to revisit that when I have some more time, but this is at least giving me some direction. I have a feeling that the 3" 19ILD is just too much squish and we need something like 3" 36 + 5" 28 + 1-2" 19".


In your response to Mattrebuild I saw you ordered an additional 2" 28ild. Not sure how that will play out but It might depend on how thick the 19ild layer above it is. At 6'1 185 lbs I personally found 6" 28ild talalay over 36ild dunlop to be supportive enough for my hips but my upper body, being lighter, did not sink in enough, causing alignment problems in the upper back. I also had some hot spots. I also tried this configuration with an addilditional 3" 19ild talalay on top which made everything too soft to offer proper support. Point being, when you receive the new layer you should test varying thicknesses (0-3") of 19ild for the top layer to see what happens.

Another option would be to replace the 19ild with 24ild for the comfort layer on top. The idea is it is still soft enough to offer pressure relief but not so soft you go right through it. This is where I am at right now in my mattress testing.

I would be generally shocked if something like 3" 36 + 3" 32 + 2" 28" + 1" 19 is what we needed, if not exactly what you suggested. I really hesitate to say firmer, but maybe that 11-12" stack of firmer latex would be a totally different game from the Roma mattress we had. (1.5" foam + 3" 30ILD + 3" 40ILD dunlop)


I know you are hesitant to go firmer, but Mattrebuild's suggestion is a decent one. 12" of latex can be very different compared to 9", let alone the 6"+foam you had in the Roma. I would be curious to hear what Mattresbuild thinks of the two configurations below compared to his original suggestion. I may end up having to go this route myself.


2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer

2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 31 Jan 2022 10:10 #33

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In your response to Mattrebuild I saw you ordered an additional 2" 28ild. Not sure how that will play out but It might depend on how thick the 19ild layer above it is. At 6'1 185 lbs I personally found 6" 28ild talalay over 36ild dunlop to be supportive enough for my hips but my upper body, being lighter, did not sink in enough, causing alignment problems in the upper back. I also had some hot spots. I also tried this configuration with an addilditional 3" 19ild talalay on top which made everything too soft to offer proper support. Point being, when you receive the new layer you should test varying thicknesses (0-3") of 19ild for the top layer to see what happens.

Another option would be to replace the 19ild with 24ild for the comfort layer on top. The idea is it is still soft enough to offer pressure relief but not so soft you go right through it. This is where I am at right now in my mattress testing.


I've been taking my time with testing and giving the layers a fair shot before moving anything around as of late. So far I've come to the consensus that the 3" slab of 19ILD Talalay is near useless. We sink right through it and I don't think it's a viable layer in our stack.

We're currently on 1" 19ILD Dunlop + 5" 28ILD Talalay (3" from APM + 2" from LMF) + 3" 36ILD.

Bed definitely feels a little firmer, but not in a bad way. I THINK it's better, but cannot tell. I'm still trying to isolate exactly where my pain is and if it's posture related. I've had 2 completely pain free nights in the last 20 days but I can't figure out how I was laying those nights. I'm so groggy when I wake up from that deep sleep that I forget how I was.

I think for right now I'm pumping the brakes a bit with adjustments. I have contemplated a 2-3" 38+ Dunlop base layer to play around with, but I'm not sure what direction I want to take just yet. 2-3" of 24ILD would be interesting but I never found somewhere that had it other than the Dunlop at diynaturalbedding for near the same price as a zoned layer. I'd probably go down the zoned layer route before dropping near $500 for a single 3" layer.

Where have you found 24ILD to be available?

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 02 Feb 2022 02:03 #34

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In your response to Mattrebuild I saw you ordered an additional 2" 28ild. Not sure how that will play out but It might depend on how thick the 19ild layer above it is. At 6'1 185 lbs I personally found 6" 28ild talalay over 36ild dunlop to be supportive enough for my hips but my upper body, being lighter, did not sink in enough, causing alignment problems in the upper back. I also had some hot spots. I also tried this configuration with an addilditional 3" 19ild talalay on top which made everything too soft to offer proper support. Point being, when you receive the new layer you should test varying thicknesses (0-3") of 19ild for the top layer to see what happens.

Another option would be to replace the 19ild with 24ild for the comfort layer on top. The idea is it is still soft enough to offer pressure relief but not so soft you go right through it. This is where I am at right now in my mattress testing.


I've been taking my time with testing and giving the layers a fair shot before moving anything around as of late. So far I've come to the consensus that the 3" slab of 19ILD Talalay is near useless. We sink right through it and I don't think it's a viable layer in our stack.

We're currently on 1" 19ILD Dunlop + 5" 28ILD Talalay (3" from APM + 2" from LMF) + 3" 36ILD.

Bed definitely feels a little firmer, but not in a bad way. I THINK it's better, but cannot tell. I'm still trying to isolate exactly where my pain is and if it's posture related. I've had 2 completely pain free nights in the last 20 days but I can't figure out how I was laying those nights. I'm so groggy when I wake up from that deep sleep that I forget how I was.

I think for right now I'm pumping the brakes a bit with adjustments. I have contemplated a 2-3" 38+ Dunlop base layer to play around with, but I'm not sure what direction I want to take just yet. 2-3" of 24ILD would be interesting but I never found somewhere that had it other than the Dunlop at diynaturalbedding for near the same price as a zoned layer. I'd probably go down the zoned layer route before dropping near $500 for a single 3" layer.

Where have you found 24ILD to be available?


Have to agree that 19ild seems like a poor choice for individuals my size and larger. I don't understand how it gets recommended so frequently but maybe I am in the minority.


I was able to order 24ild blended talalay (Talalay Global) through Flexus. I am still waiting for it to come in but I am concerned it will not solve my problem. Another individual on the forum recently received the same product and it ended up being on the softer end of the range at 22-23ild. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the layer I receive ends up at the target ild or slightly firmer. It will be at least a few weeks until I can report back, but I'll let you know how things turn out.

Regardless I think you previously mentioned Flexus was unwilling place additional special orders due to supply chain issues. However, I believe Flexus regularly stocks dunlop in 25ild. If you are looking for talalay you would have to call vendors and see if they are willing to special order. You can also ask about blended talalay from Radium Foam. Radium's product have to be imported from Europe, which has been an issue from what I hear, but they do make a blended talalay with a target ild of 25.7.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 02 Feb 2022 07:21 #35

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In your response to Mattrebuild I saw you ordered an additional 2" 28ild. Not sure how that will play out but It might depend on how thick the 19ild layer above it is. At 6'1 185 lbs I personally found 6" 28ild talalay over 36ild dunlop to be supportive enough for my hips but my upper body, being lighter, did not sink in enough, causing alignment problems in the upper back. I also had some hot spots. I also tried this configuration with an addilditional 3" 19ild talalay on top which made everything too soft to offer proper support. Point being, when you receive the new layer you should test varying thicknesses (0-3") of 19ild for the top layer to see what happens.

Another option would be to replace the 19ild with 24ild for the comfort layer on top. The idea is it is still soft enough to offer pressure relief but not so soft you go right through it. This is where I am at right now in my mattress testing.


I've been taking my time with testing and giving the layers a fair shot before moving anything around as of late. So far I've come to the consensus that the 3" slab of 19ILD Talalay is near useless. We sink right through it and I don't think it's a viable layer in our stack.

We're currently on 1" 19ILD Dunlop + 5" 28ILD Talalay (3" from APM + 2" from LMF) + 3" 36ILD.

Bed definitely feels a little firmer, but not in a bad way. I THINK it's better, but cannot tell. I'm still trying to isolate exactly where my pain is and if it's posture related. I've had 2 completely pain free nights in the last 20 days but I can't figure out how I was laying those nights. I'm so groggy when I wake up from that deep sleep that I forget how I was.

I think for right now I'm pumping the brakes a bit with adjustments. I have contemplated a 2-3" 38+ Dunlop base layer to play around with, but I'm not sure what direction I want to take just yet. 2-3" of 24ILD would be interesting but I never found somewhere that had it other than the Dunlop at diynaturalbedding for near the same price as a zoned layer. I'd probably go down the zoned layer route before dropping near $500 for a single 3" layer.

Where have you found 24ILD to be available?


Have to agree that 19ild seems like a poor choice for individuals my size and larger. I don't understand how it gets recommended so frequently but maybe I am in the minority.


I was able to order 24ild blended talalay (Talalay Global) through Flexus. I am still waiting for it to come in but I am concerned it will not solve my problem. Another individual on the forum recently received the same product and it ended up being on the softer end of the range at 22-23ild. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the layer I receive ends up at the target ild or slightly firmer. It will be at least a few weeks until I can report back, but I'll let you know how things turn out.

Regardless I think you previously mentioned Flexus was unwilling place additional special orders due to supply chain issues. However, I believe Flexus regularly stocks dunlop in 25ild. If you are looking for talalay you would have to call vendors and see if they are willing to special order. You can also ask about blended talalay from Radium Foam. Radium's product have to be imported from Europe, which has been an issue from what I hear, but they do make a blended talalay with a target ild of 25.7.


Hmm. I'll check into those options to see if a ~24ILD is viable, but I'm leaning towards zoning as time goes on. I have an email out to flobeds for some ILD information as well.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 03 Feb 2022 09:09 #36

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Have to agree that 19ild seems like a poor choice for individuals my size and larger. I don't understand how it gets recommended so frequently but maybe I am in the minority.

I was able to order 24ild blended talalay (Talalay Global) through Flexus. I am still waiting for it to come in but I am concerned it will not solve my problem. Another individual on the forum recently received the same product and it ended up being on the softer end of the range at 22-23ild. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the layer I receive ends up at the target ild or slightly firmer. It will be at least a few weeks until I can report back, but I'll let you know how things turn out.

Regardless I think you previously mentioned Flexus was unwilling place additional special orders due to supply chain issues. However, I believe Flexus regularly stocks dunlop in 25ild. If you are looking for talalay you would have to call vendors and see if they are willing to special order. You can also ask about blended talalay from Radium Foam. Radium's product have to be imported from Europe, which has been an issue from what I hear, but they do make a blended talalay with a target ild of 25.7.


Just a few comments that might help.

I'm actually using a 2" layer of natural 22ILD talalay along with my 2" Flobeds convoluted topper and that seems to do the trick of providing enough pressure relief (as long as the alignment is good) on the comfort layer for both my wife and myself. Not sure this will work for everyone as a comfort layer setup but I mention it just so people have design options.

I know you've been focused on getting the perfect layer of firmness on your design but have you thought about about what the plan is if you have to replace it in the future for some reason? I would be curious what kind of issues this might cause trying to get it perfect again later. I only mention this since that limitation was one of the reasons that drove me towards using zoning rather than single layers (the other being the performance capabilities of talalay for a given ILD). I'm all for simpler/cheaper designs but I also see being able to replace or change different sections of the mattress at will as a huge design benefit in both perfromance and maintenance of any mattress. I initially was going to do all the cutting/zoning myself on my design but then I decided to try the easy route and see if Flobeds system couldn't fix my issue with alot less hassle. I knew it wasn't going to be cheap but I had made this decision before I even realized they have the same guarantee with the zoning layer as they do with the rest of the mattress (ie free layer exchange). Once you crunch the numbers on how many different ILDs you'd need and the cost of buying full 3" talalay layers to cut up suddenly you realize this system was way more economical than I originally thought (exception might be if you don't need many ILD options). I figured I would throw out my own experience of going through the design process as something you may wish to consider anyway.

From what I understand the Radium foam is still extremely hard to get (not sure who is even selling it now in the US) and most of the major mattress names on here moved over to using TG during the pandemic since they just couldn't get any product from Radium due to ongoing supply chain problems.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 03 Feb 2022 15:48 #37

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I know you've been focused on getting the perfect layer of firmness on your design but have you thought about about what the plan is if you have to replace it in the future for some reason? I would be curious what kind of issues this might cause trying to get it perfect again later. I only mention this since that limitation was one of the reasons that drove me towards using zoning rather than single layers (the other being the performance capabilities of talalay for a given ILD). I'm all for simpler/cheaper designs but I also see being able to replace or change different sections of the mattress at will as a huge design benefit in both perfromance and maintenance of any mattress. I initially was going to do all the cutting/zoning myself on my design but then I decided to try the easy route and see if Flobeds system couldn't fix my issue with alot less hassle. I knew it wasn't going to be cheap but I had made this decision before I even realized they have the same guarantee with the zoning layer as they do with the rest of the mattress (ie free layer exchange).


I know you recommend that previously in one of my other posts but for now I'm sticking to the kiss principle. I am fortunate enough to be able to test different classes figurations locally and I have recently coming to the conclusion I just need a firmer setup/more support top to bottom. it has taken about 6 months but I am alo physically adapting to a firmer feel. I have been able to get the additional travel/ability to sink in by go from 3 to 4 layers. Haven't quite worked everything out but getting close.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 04 Feb 2022 05:25 #38

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I know you recommend that previously in one of my other posts but for now I'm sticking to the kiss principle. I am fortunate enough to be able to test different classes figurations locally and I have recently coming to the conclusion I just need a firmer setup/more support top to bottom. it has taken about 6 months but I am alo physically adapting to a firmer feel. I have been able to get the additional travel/ability to sink in by go from 3 to 4 layers. Haven't quite worked everything out but getting close.


That's great news you're close to solving it. Lucky you have the ability to try stuff locally and very smart to add another layer to give yourself more travel. You don't have to sell me on the KISS principle, I'm right there with you (I tried but just didn't work in my case). Anyone who's been down this DIY route knows it often takes alot of patience and perseverence to really get it perfect for their specicfic needs. Hopefully that new layer comes in soon to complete your setup and get things just right for you.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 13 Apr 2022 14:08 #39

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It's been a little while since I updated on this topic. Not much has changed though. I'm still using the 1" 19ILD Dunlop + 5" 28ILD Talalay (3" from APM + 2" from LMF) + 3" 36ILD and still having the same mid to lower mid back pain. Its worth noting that if I can get a small travel pillow under the middle of my back, I sleep with no pain. I also know that we need a thicker mattress, I'm just trying to weigh my options.

Today, I thought I had come to a conclusive next step when FloBeds was having a 22% off sale, but had a wake up call when a kind sales associate called to check and make sure I knew I was only ordering HALF of a layer. It seems that with the $500 queen price tag I assumed that it was for a complete queen size 3" layer and it is in fact half. Even with 22%, it's still $800 plus shipping for a single 3" layer. I'm not prepared to spend that much to go that route just yet as I want something replaceable and I don't know how long FloBeds will be around to offer replacement zones(Which are $50-100 a piece per side).

So I guess it's down to another 3" 28ILD Dunlop or Talalay slab that will go above my 36ILD. I thought about trying to hunt down a 24-25ILD, but I don't think that is the right direction.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 13 Apr 2022 15:40 #40

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Today, I thought I had come to a conclusive next step when FloBeds was having a 22% off sale, but had a wake up call when a kind sales associate called to check and make sure I knew I was only ordering HALF of a layer. It seems that with the $500 queen price tag I assumed that it was for a complete queen size 3" layer and it is in fact half. Even with 22%, it's still $800 plus shipping for a single 3" layer. I'm not prepared to spend that much to go that route just yet as I want something replaceable and I don't know how long FloBeds will be around to offer replacement zones(Which are $50-100 a piece per side).


I can totally sympathize with your situation and the sticker shock that one adjustable king size layer could retail for $1200 (I got mine on sale too) but having looked at my options I can tell you it’s still a heck of a deal. The alternative is to buy 3” talalay layers of each firmness (@ $300ea), figure out where the zones need to be and cut them yourself. I almost went this route but in the end I’m so glad I didn’t because little did I know at the time but Flobeds will replace any of those zones in your V-zone layer for the warranty period (20 years). So in my case I needed 4 more zones to try and get my alignment correct so I just called them up and they sent those layers (over $400 worth) to me free. You really can’t beat this setup for adjustability and when you factor in the free adjustment pieces for that long it becomes a complete no brainer. Now even if Flobeds did somehow go out of business and you needed a replacement section you could always buy a 3” layer and cut it yourself or try to buy leftovers (pieces leftover from cutting) to make it work again. Anyway just wanted to share since I went through the same thing not long ago.

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