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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 29 Dec 2021 18:41 #21

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for comparison you might also try 19/36/28 but I'm not sure you will like it given your previous experience. At the very least it allows you to rule something out.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 29 Dec 2021 19:10 #22

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Snip


It's a Queen mattress that we are building. I'll try to work out that mid layer as it could very well just need shaken out.

can you give more details on the discomfort you are experiencing? Does it come on relatively quickly or only after sleeping several hours? Do you feel any pressure points or numbness anywhere (hips/shoulders) or is just muscle pain in the mid back early in the morning? How do your hips and shoulders "feel" when sinking in to the current setup. Too much/too little? When in your sleeping position, if your partner looks at your spine at bed level does it appear relatively straight from your tailbone to your neck or is there a curve. If curved, what part the back and which direction? A long straight edge, like a broom stick, might be helpful for comparison.

Previously with the Roma/topper setup you said you felt like you bottomed out the soft top layer and experienced some hammocking. You also said that you rolled your shoulder forward as opposed to sleeping with it directly under you. If this all still the same?

You didn't mention anything about the new cover. Would it be correct to assume that it made no difference?

after you answer the above questions, the first change you should try is swapping the top and middle layer. Putting the 28 on top will offer more support but the 19ild in the middle will still allow for contouring. Let us know if the symptoms get better or worse, answering all the same questions. Hopefully the comparison will offer insight as to whether you need softer, firmer, thicker, etc.


We have not purchased a cover yet, we are just using the stretch cotton cover that the 3" 19ILD topper came with and a mattress protector.

I do feel like my shoulders/hips push through the 19ILD layer, but in a good, cradling way. I'm not sure how far I go into the 28ILD layer at this time, but I don't believe it is enough to allow the full support of my mid back. I don't really feel a HARD bottom out, everything seems to transition well.

As for the pain, it's a deep back pain at my torso's most narrow point about 6 hours after falling asleep. I'll generally wake up and start tossing/turning trying to find relief for the following hour or two until I call it quits.
No pain or pressure points on my pointy bits at any time, only the back pain. Sleeping position is still shoulder rolled forward on my side. In terms of support/sinking in, I feel like my hips and shoulders do sink in enough, but the narrow point of my side where I get the pain feels partially supported.

I would caution your plan of action. When making changes, try to swap one thing at a time and like for like so as to introduce as few variables as possible. I.E. swap talalay for talalay and dunlop for dunlop, keeping brands consistent if possible. At least until you have more data points work off of. You might also find that adding/subtracting 1" increments has a relatively small change and might be geared toward fine tuning. Doesn't sound like you are at that point. I'll refrain from any more suggestions until you report back.


The current plan is to try flipping the 28ILD and the 19ILD for a week if we can take it. If we don't see any improvement, we were going to add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer at the bottom of the 3" 19ILD Talalay layer to see if that does anything. Talalay isn't available in 1" toppers as far as I know so we figured Dunlop was a safe bet for a transition layer. We could try a 5" 19ILD Full Talalay comfort layer, but most of the posts from experienced members discourage 5" comfort layers.

Tests:
Swap comfort and mid layer (28 + 19 + 36)
Add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer between the top and mid layer.(3" 19T + 1" 19D + 3" 28T + 3" 36T) ($140 w/ 30 day returns)

Future options:
Add a 2" 28ILD layer to make the mid 5" of 28ILD. ($280 w/ no returns)
Comfort exchange the 36ILD support layer for 32 or 28ILD. ($100 exchange fee within 60 days)

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 29 Dec 2021 22:26 #23

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It's a Queen mattress that we are building. I'll try to work out that mid layer as it could very well just need shaken out.


queens are commonly split to accommodate couples with different preferences but there was nothing mentioned about a split layer in the product listing. I would have expected a single piece. It shouldn't cause any problems but if it bothers you contact APM. If you were to pursue a replacement, ask if you can hang onto the current piece of latex until the new one arrives. Having two 28ild layers on hand would allow you to do some experimenting if need be.

can you give more details on the discomfort you are experiencing? Does it come on relatively quickly or only after sleeping several hours? Do you feel any pressure points or numbness anywhere (hips/shoulders) or is just muscle pain in the mid back early in the morning? How do your hips and shoulders "feel" when sinking in to the current setup. Too much/too little? When in your sleeping position, if your partner looks at your spine at bed level does it appear relatively straight from your tailbone to your neck or is there a curve. If curved, what part the back and which direction? A long straight edge, like a broom stick, might be helpful for comparison.

Previously with the Roma/topper setup you said you felt like you bottomed out the soft top layer and experienced some hammocking. You also said that you rolled your shoulder forward as opposed to sleeping with it directly under you. If this all still the same?

You didn't mention anything about the new cover. Would it be correct to assume that it made no difference?

after you answer the above questions, the first change you should try is swapping the top and middle layer. Putting the 28 on top will offer more support but the 19ild in the middle will still allow for contouring. Let us know if the symptoms get better or worse, answering all the same questions. Hopefully the comparison will offer insight as to whether you need softer, firmer, thicker, etc.


We have not purchased a cover yet, we are just using the stretch cotton cover that the 3" 19ILD topper came with and a mattress protector.

I do feel like my shoulders/hips push through the 19ILD layer, but in a good, cradling way. I'm not sure how far I go into the 28ILD layer at this time, but I don't believe it is enough to allow the full support of my mid back. I don't really feel a HARD bottom out, everything seems to transition well.

As for the pain, it's a deep back pain at my torso's most narrow point about 6 hours after falling asleep. I'll generally wake up and start tossing/turning trying to find relief for the following hour or two until I call it quits.
No pain or pressure points on my pointy bits at any time, only the back pain. Sleeping position is still shoulder rolled forward on my side. In terms of support/sinking in, I feel like my hips and shoulders do sink in enough, but the narrow point of my side where I get the pain feels partially supported.


How does the mattress feel when you first climb into bed? Ok? Lacking in any respect?

I think your immediate goal should be to determine if the lack of support in the torso area, and resulting back pain, is being caused by sinking in too much or too little. Hopefully you can get enough clues using the latex you have on hand.

The onset of back pain in the early morning points to a configuration that is too soft and allows the hips to sink in too much. The muscles spend all night compensating for the lack of support. After several hours the muscles fatigue and the result is back pain. The lack of pressure points and the fact that you don't feel like you are bottoming out on a firmer layer below has thinking too soft rather than too firm. But I could be wrong.

The shoulder is throwing me for a loop. It is possible you are rolling the shoulder forward because the mattress does not provide enough travel for it to sink in completely. This in turn could cause alignment problems. If this was the case I would expect some discomfort/pressure because you would be running aground on the firmer latex below. You said you don't have any pressure points though. Maybe it's not an issue?

Give the 28/19/36 a try for a few nights. Hopefully it provides insight into which direction you need to go. It's also worth spending 30-120 min on 28/36 and 19/36/28 configurations. I would expect both to feel rather firm but the goal is contrast and more data points.



I would caution your plan of action. When making changes, try to swap one thing at a time and like for like so as to introduce as few variables as possible. I.E. swap talalay for talalay and dunlop for dunlop, keeping brands consistent if possible. At least until you have more data points work off of. You might also find that adding/subtracting 1" increments has a relatively small change and might be geared toward fine tuning. Doesn't sound like you are at that point. I'll refrain from any more suggestions until you report back.


The current plan is to try flipping the 28ILD and the 19ILD for a week if we can take it. If we don't see any improvement, we were going to add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer at the bottom of the 3" 19ILD Talalay layer to see if that does anything. Talalay isn't available in 1" toppers as far as I know so we figured Dunlop was a safe bet for a transition layer. We could try a 5" 19ILD Full Talalay comfort layer, but most of the posts from experienced members discourage 5" comfort layers.

Tests:
Swap comfort and mid layer (28 + 19 + 36)
Add a 1" 19ILD Dunlop layer between the top and mid layer.(3" 19T + 1" 19D + 3" 28T + 3" 36T) ($140 w/ 30 day returns)

Future options:
Add a 2" 28ILD layer to make the mid 5" of 28ILD. ($280 w/ no returns)
Comfort exchange the 36ILD support layer for 32 or 28ILD. ($100 exchange fee within 60 days)


The concern here is that if your discomfort is being cause by a mattress that is too soft, swapping the support layer for 32ild or adding to the overall thickness of the mattress will only make things worse. Hopefully experimentation in the coming days will give you some insight into whether to need to go firmer or softer.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 30 Dec 2021 06:22 #24

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How does the mattress feel when you first climb into bed? Ok? Lacking in any respect?

I think your immediate goal should be to determine if the lack of support in the torso area, and resulting back pain, is being caused by sinking in too much or too little. Hopefully you can get enough clues using the latex you have on hand.

The onset of back pain in the early morning points to a configuration that is too soft and allows the hips to sink in too much. The muscles spend all night compensating for the lack of support. After several hours the muscles fatigue and the result is back pain. The lack of pressure points and the fact that you don't feel like you are bottoming out on a firmer layer below has thinking too soft rather than too firm. But I could be wrong.

The shoulder is throwing me for a loop. It is possible you are rolling the shoulder forward because the mattress does not provide enough travel for it to sink in completely. This in turn could cause alignment problems. If this was the case I would expect some discomfort/pressure because you would be running aground on the firmer latex below. You said you don't have any pressure points though. Maybe it's not an issue?

Give the 28/19/36 a try for a few nights. Hopefully it provides insight into which direction you need to go. It's also worth spending 30-120 min on 28/36 and 19/36/28 configurations. I would expect both to feel rather firm but the goal is contrast and more data points.


I'm going to mix and match with what we have, and see what we can come up with. I believe the comfort exchange is a cross-ship style so I would get the layer before I send the old one back. I am curious as to what a 2-3" 19ILD + 6" 28ILD would feel like.

The shoulder rolling thing started for a few reasons:
I was sleeping ontop of my arms and would get occasional numbness with our old mattress and the Roma.
When we had the Roma (28/38), I felt like I slept ontop of the mattress and would only make it 2-3 hours before waking up with much worse full back pain. Rolling my shoulder to sleep more on my side allowed me to get a bit further before waking up and I just never changed my sleeping style.

I may need to revisit a neutral side sleep position with my shoulders straight and see how that goes.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 30 Dec 2021 13:29 #25

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I am curious as to what a 2-3" 19ILD + 6" 28ILD would feel like.


You will sink in more. You can test the waters by folding the 28 layer you have in half and putting the 19ild over it.

Seems like you want a softer setup and to sink in more. What is driving that? Maybe I am missing something in your initial feedback?

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 30 Dec 2021 15:28 #26

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I am curious as to what a 2-3" 19ILD + 6" 28ILD would feel like.


You will sink in more. You can test the waters by folding the 28 layer you have in half and putting the 19ild over it.

Seems like you want a softer setup and to sink in more. What is driving that? Maybe I am missing something in your initial feedback?


My thoughts are that I need to sink deeper into supportive foam so my side is properly supported instead of feeling like foam is barely touching it. This stems from the Roma experience where a 3" 28/3" 38 setup with 1.5" of polyfoam ontop was excruciating to sleep on.

I'm going to try firmer configs again to verify, but am fairly certain I need to sink in more. I think more 19ILD might be too soft and unsupportive though. That's why I mentioned 6" of 28ILD under the 19ILD layer.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 30 Dec 2021 17:05 #27

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My thoughts are that I need to sink deeper into supportive foam so my side is properly supported instead of feeling like foam is barely touching it. This stems from the Roma experience where a 3" 28/3" 38 setup with 1.5" of polyfoam ontop was excruciating to sleep on.


I can see that after the Roma. Can you clarify if the new setup feels exactly the same as the Roma. Do you have any gaps between your torso and the mattress? Can you easily slide your hand between your torso and the mattress? I got the impression that you were sinking in ok on the new setup.

I'm going to try firmer configs again to verify, but am fairly certain I need to sink in more. I think more 19ILD might be too soft and unsupportive though. That's why I mentioned 6" of 28ILD under the 19ILD layer.


The worry with a 6" base of 28ild is that there is nothing firmer below to stop you from sinking in too much. Definitely give it a try to see what happens. Might want to compare with the 28ild folded in half length wise over the 36ild. Should help you figure out if you need more or less support.

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 11 Jan 2022 04:24 #28

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My thoughts are that I need to sink deeper into supportive foam so my side is properly supported instead of feeling like foam is barely touching it. This stems from the Roma experience where a 3" 28/3" 38 setup with 1.5" of polyfoam ontop was excruciating to sleep on.


I can see that after the Roma. Can you clarify if the new setup feels exactly the same as the Roma. Do you have any gaps between your torso and the mattress? Can you easily slide your hand between your torso and the mattress? I got the impression that you were sinking in ok on the new setup.

I'm going to try firmer configs again to verify, but am fairly certain I need to sink in more. I think more 19ILD might be too soft and unsupportive though. That's why I mentioned 6" of 28ILD under the 19ILD layer.


The worry with a 6" base of 28ild is that there is nothing firmer below to stop you from sinking in too much. Definitely give it a try to see what happens. Might want to compare with the 28ild folded in half length wise over the 36ild. Should help you figure out if you need more or less support.


So, the 36/28/19 9" stack does have conform well to my side, but it feels to soft/squishy to be supportive. I have to wiggle my hand to get it inbetween the mattress and the low spot on my side, but it isn't difficult at all.

Made some other progress with testing:

3" 36 + 3" 28 + 4" 19 = same if not worse mid back hammocking pain. So it doesn't look like softer is the answer.
3" 36 + 3" 19 + 3" 28 = the support seemed much better on top, but woke up many times through the night with a different pain like my back was hammocking the other way and had a pressure point at the low spot of my side. I'm wondering if that soft under the medium is allowing too much contouring to the point of causing hot spots. Fit was tight against my side.

I'm going to try 3" 36 + 3" 19 + 3" 28 + 1" 19 next, to see if that helps with hot spots.

I did briefly try the 28 folded over with the 36 below and I thought it felt pretty good. Couldn't lay on it long enough to tell though. I'll try to revisit that when I have some more time, but this is at least giving me some direction. I have a feeling that the 3" 19ILD is just too much squish and we need something like 3" 36 + 5" 28 + 1-2" 19".

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 11 Jan 2022 11:20 #29

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I know I'm a little late to the party but having been through alot of this myself I figured I might be able to provide a few comments that could be helpful. Now at around 6'2 and 185lbs that 28T medium layer is a bit soft for what you likely need for proper support. Really you should have something more like what I've outlined below (I would also stick with all talalay layers since you are having conformity issues).

2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (44 ILD) - Support Layer

If you find that doesn't work or you just really wanted to have this be a one and done fix then I'd suggest trying Flobeds V-zone (Medium) layer as the top support layer (instead of the 32ILD layer). It's quite expensive but I guarantee it will fix any support issues due to the huge number of combinations you can set up to create the perfect alignment. You may still want to try other options since mine was a pretty extreme case (I really struggled to get a setup that provided both alignment and pressure relief at around 6'2 and 250lbs with athletic build) but I wanted to throw that out there in case that might be of interest.

www.flobeds.com/components-for-flobeds/ (scroll down to the vZone Natural Talalay Premium Core Layer section)

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Struggling with back pain, DIY layer advice - Side Sleeper 11 Jan 2022 11:42 #30

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I know I'm a little late to the party but having been through alot of this myself I figured I might be able to provide a few comments that could be helpful. Now at around 6'2 and 185lbs that 28T medium layer is a bit soft for what you likely need for proper support. Really you should have something more like what I've outlined below (I would also stick with all talalay layers since you are having conformity issues).

2-3" Soft (19ILD) - Comfort Layer
3" Firm (32 ILD) - Support Layer
3" XFirm (36 ILD) - Support Layer
3" SFirm (44 ILD) - Support Layer

If you find that doesn't work or you just really wanted to have this be a one and done fix then I'd suggest trying Flobeds V-zone (Medium) layer as the top support layer (instead of the 32ILD layer). It's quite expensive but I guarantee it will fix any support issues due to the huge number of combinations you can set up to create the perfect alignment. You may still want to try other options since mine was a pretty extreme case (I really struggled to get a setup that provided both alignment and pressure relief at around 6'2 and 250lbs with athletic build) but I wanted to throw that out there in case that might be of interest.

www.flobeds.com/components-for-flobeds/ (scroll down to the vZone Natural Talalay Premium Core Layer section)


We may need to go down that road at some point, but I'm not at the point where I think It's necessary. Firmer suggestions keep getting tossed around. Problem is that we have been firmer and it was by far the worst experience so far. 1.5" foam + 3" 30ILD + 3" 40ILD dunlop, my wife an I both couldn't stand it. She is much more resilient than I with mattresses, but even she hated that mattress's firmness. Perhaps that was too thin a mattress to offer enough sink in and support for the firmness level.

Either way, I ended up ordering a 2" 28ILD piece for further experimentation. 3" 36 + 5" 28 + 1-2" 19" is our next test. 9-10" overall, with still a firm base layer but a bit more mid to work with. I have no idea if it's the right move, but it's splitting the difference between too firm and too soft so we shall see.

I would be generally shocked if something like 3" 36 + 3" 32 + 2" 28" + 1" 19 is what we needed, if not exactly what you suggested. I really hesitate to say firmer, but maybe that 11-12" stack of firmer latex would be a totally different game from the Roma mattress we had. (1.5" foam + 3" 30ILD + 3" 40ILD dunlop)

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