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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 05 Jun 2017 13:53 #1

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Hello, Phoenix and others. About 5 years ago I came here for info and advice on a new bed, and I ended up with a setup that was really great. So thank you, Phoenix, for you help back then.

So, around Jan 2013 I put a firm innerspring, without any comfort layer to speak of, together with a 3" medium ILD blended talalay topper. It was perfect for us for several years, but at this point the indentations in the topper are really bad, and I can feel the mattress below (I'm around 160 lbs, btw).

I loved this setup for a few years, so I am close to simply pulling the trigger on another 3" talalay topper, but I'd like to increase the life expectancy this time around, if possible, because these toppers are pricey.

I'm thinking maybe a 1" firm dunlop below a 2" talalay this time. Does that seem reasonable? Any other layer combinations I should consider to keep the feel similar to the current configuration, while adding some durability?

Much Thanks,
Ryan

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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 05 Jun 2017 16:15 #2

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Hi Ryan,

Nice to hear from you again.

What you’re considering certainly could provide a bit more durability, but of course you will be changing your comfort.

Keeping the same ILD of Talalay, you could try out 2” of that Talalay on top with 1” of Dunlop underneath that is “medium” (Dunlop of a similar ILD will feel a bit firmer than the corresponding Talalay) or 1” of Dunlop that if “firm” for a bit more difference. You could also use 1” of a “firm” Talalay instead of the Dunlop. All of these things will slightly firm up your overall comfort, as you're taking away 33% of your original 3" comfort layer and replacing that with a firmer piece of latex.

If you wish to go to 4” total, you would have more options, starting with the 2” of “medium” Talalay on top, the you could choose to go with 2” of “medium” Dunlop underneath, 2” of “firm” Dunlop or 2” of “firm” Talalay. These offerings would all firm up the feel overall from your current set up even more. You of course could opt to keep a 3” “medium” Talalay on top and then place a 1” “firm” Dunlop or 1” “firm” Talalay beneath that as well. This would probably be the closest to your current feel, as you'd be keeping your total of 3" of "medium" Talalay as the uppermost layer.

As you can see, there really are quite a few combination choices. The firmer and thicker the layer on top of the innerspring unit, the more it will provide a barrier to the conformation of the spring unit and a “stronger” transition for your upper comfort layer to that spring unit, but a firmer transition layer will also have more of an impact upon your comfort (changing the uppermost layers have the most dramatic impact).

Phoenix
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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 09:39 #3

Hi Ryan. Do you mind if I ask who the manufacturer of your blended talalay topper is and where you purchased it? I'm frankly astounded that it's only lasted four years. If it's a major brand, I'm going to have to reconsider my decision to buy a mattress with blended talalay layers.

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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 14:07 #4

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Hi kazi,

Talalay latex in the western world will come from either Talalay Global or Radium, and it is one of the most durable foam comfort materials available. There is more about the different types and blends of latex and their relative properties and durability in this article and in post #6 here .

There are many factors involved in the durability of a mattress and the materials placed within. In this situation, we don’t have complete information about the makeup or use of the DIY mattress that was using this Talalay. I believe a completed mattress from Denver Mattress was used as the base, so the comfort layers used in that mattress will impact the durability and impressions. You’d also need to know the type of foundation used to see if that impacted durability. Also, the type of covering used over the latex will impact durability, so you’d need to consider that as well. Without getting too complicated, it's also important to know that durability is relative to the person that sleeps on a mattress and no matter how durable the materials themselves may be ... in practical terms a mattress will only last as long as it maintains the support, pressure relief, and personal preferences that allows someone to sleep well on a mattress. Foam softening or other changes in mattress materials or components may have different effects on different people and a mattress that has softened or changed to the degree that it no longer provides the support, pressure relief. or personal preferences for one person may still be fine for someone else. It's usually not the final breakdown of materials that leads to the need to replace a mattress but the gradual loss of comfort and support that finally "crosses" a line and at some point is no longer suitable for that person to sleep on. Each person's "line" can be very different. There’s much more information about mattresses and durability here if you’re interested, and I personally would not hesitate to recommend latex as a selection of a comfort layer within any mattress you may be considering.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Administrator. Reason: Updating link to https: status

Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 15:30 #5

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Thank you for the thoughtful response, Phoenix. Definitely helped me clarify my thinking. I'm going to mull over the different 4" combinations and go that route.

Kazi, my topper was from Dreamfoam Bedding, but I don't know which one of the manufactures they sourced from. My base mattress is a simple firm model from Denver Mattress. Personally, I don't terribly mind replacing the topper every few years, considering that the base mattress, box springs and frame should last many years. I also like the flexibility of being able to modify the comfort layer. I am hoping by going 4" I can improve the durability this time around. We love the feel of this setup, so I think it's worth it all things considered.

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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 17:21 #6

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Hi Ryan,

I'll be interested in your thoughts for follow-up topper configurations with your set up.

Phoenix
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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 19:09 #7

Kazi, my topper was from Dreamfoam Bedding, but I don't know which one of the manufactures they sourced from. My base mattress is a simple firm model from Denver Mattress. Personally, I don't terribly mind replacing the topper every few years, considering that the base mattress, box springs and frame should last many years. I also like the flexibility of being able to modify the comfort layer. I am hoping by going 4" I can improve the durability this time around. We love the feel of this setup, so I think it's worth it all things considered.


I have come across some interesting info regarding Dreamfoam in all my mattress research. Apparently they use a cheaper blended latex foam that's mostly synthetic, whereas the good stuff (from Talalay Global or Radium) is the exact opposite with a higher natural to synthetic ratio. You're far from alone in experiencing premature depressions in your topper, according to the hundreds of reviews I've pored over.

I hope your new topper configuration works much better for you this time around! Just FYI, SleepEZ has the good blended talalay (also natural talalay and dunlop) at the most reasonable price I've found to date.

Phoenix, thank you for the very comprehensive explanation re: topper wear. I don't know where Dreamfoam gets their talalay, but it definitely doesn't sound like TG or Radium unless one or both have changed their formulation recently.

Edit: Following some more research, it appears that Dreamfoam does their latex from TG. I'm thoroughly confused. Does TG make a proprietary blended latex for Dreamfoam or have they really started using a higher % of synthetic ingredients in their blended latex?

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Last edit: by kazi.

Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 19:26 #8

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kazi, interesting info about Dreamfoam and blended talalay. I haven't tried to get a definitive answer, but my understanding from various websites is that blended talalay is around 70% synthetic and 30% natural. Anyhow, this time around I think I am going to go with 100% natural for the top layer, probably from Radium, based on a post by Phoenix stating that Radium considers their natural to be a bit more durable than their blended (Talalay Global claiming their products to be the reverse). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks for the tip on SleepEZ. I am also considering mattresses.net. They stated, through email, that they source from both Talalay Global and Radium, and that I could choose which I wanted in my order.

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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 06 Jun 2017 19:44 #9

kazi, interesting info about Dreamfoam and blended talalay. I haven't tried to get a definitive answer, but my understanding from various websites is that blended talalay is around 70% synthetic and 30% natural. Anyhow, this time around I think I am going to go with 100% natural for the top layer, probably from Radium, based on a post by Phoenix stating that Radium considers their natural to be a bit more durable than their blended (Talalay Global claiming their products to be the reverse). ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thanks for the tip on SleepEZ. I am also considering mattresses.net. They stated, through email, that they source from both Talalay Global and Radium, and that I could choose which I wanted in my order.


Oh gosh. If all the blendeds are mostly synthetic, I guess I'll be going with natural. I was looking at mattresses.net, too. They have a lot of good stuff and the prices are hard to beat, I only wish their toppers came in a variety of ILDs.

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Innerspring + Latex topper revamp 07 Jun 2017 10:48 #10

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Hi kazi,

I have come across some interesting info regarding Dreamfoam in all my mattress research. Apparently they use a cheaper blended latex foam that's mostly synthetic, whereas the good stuff (from Talalay Global or Radium) is the exact opposite with a higher natural to synthetic ratio. You're far from alone in experiencing premature depressions in your topper, according to the hundreds of reviews I've pored over.


Dreamfoam does not purchase “cheaper blended latex foam”. I’m not sure where you received that information, but it certainly isn’t accurate. The difference in Talalay latex formulation was described in the links I’ve provided here in this thread in reply to your previous questions.

As someone reading through this thread might think that what you wrote above was correct, I'll take a few minutes to describe in more detail about some of the differences in Talalay latex.

To assist you and others reading through this thread (this information can be found in much more detail in post #6 here that I linked to in post #4 in this current thread), Talalay latex in the western world comes from either Talalay Global or Radium. The Talalay can be either synthetic (100% SBR), natural (100% NR) or blended (SBR/NR – this would be 70% SBR / 30% NR for either Talalay Global or Radium). Blended is by far the most common Talalay produced. The primary reason that 100% NR Talalay was introduced (in 2005) is to cater to the "natural" market who are willing to pay more for a product which has a more natural source, even though it may not be as durable in certain circumstances.

There is more detailed information about 100% natural and blended Talalay in post #2 here that is very informative.

Those who value a more natural product for personal reasons and are willing to pay for it (in price and possibly lower durability), or who can feel a difference and prefer the feel that comes from the greater elasticity and compression modulus of the natural would likely choose the 100% natural Talalay.

Those who value the increased consistency, greater choice of softness/firmness levels, or lower cost of the blend or who can feel a difference in pressure relief, would likely choose the blend.

Both are great choices and in the end the choice between them is part of each person's individual " value equation ". Which is best for each person depends on their preferences and their budget, because all latex is a high quality material compared to other types of foam.

There are many factors that play a role in durability of foam layers and a mattress . With toppers, these factors are especially germane, as the topper is the uppermost layer, so it undergoes the most mechanical stress. And often, people place a topper on a product that already has impression issues, incorrectly expecting the topper to fix such defects, not realizing that any topper will only conform to the surface upon which it is placed.

There’s nothing wrong with choosing a 100% NR Talalay topper, but doing so based upon a supposition that is it a vastly superior product in terms of durability to blended Talalay would be an incorrect reason to make this decision.

Hopefully that helps out with any confusion! :)

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Administrator. Reason: Updating link to https: status
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