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It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 12:17 #1

A few years ago, I purchased an Ultimate Dreams mattress. It did not offer nearly enough support, stretching my back in really bad ways and it was very uncomfortable in the shoulders. This bed was a medium firmness, and while I am a bigger guy I have slept on tons different beds of various firmness levels and never experienced anything so uncomfortable. I ended up flipping the mattress over, and while certainly not comfortable it did not cause any pain that way. Fast forward a few years and I've had issues with sciatica (couldn't get out of bed for a month) and a few months later had to have back surgery to relieve another pinched nerve (took a few months to recover). The base foam (what I'm sleeping on) in my bed is now deteriorating and my back is starting to feel compressed when I wake up so I think it's time to cut my losses and buy a new bed.

I love the firm yet soft feel of memory foam but hate feeling stuck. With that in mind I think I would love some sort of a memory foam hybrid bed but I have not found anything suitable for someone my size in the price range I can afford. The most important factors in a bed for me is to minimize pressure points and have a healthy sleep environment for the nerves in my back.

I recently spoke with someone at Dreamfoam Bedding who recommended their Eurotop bed with a level 3 firmness for me after discussing my issues I'm having with my bed, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself to go with this company again due to my disappointment with my current bed.

I looked and Brooklyn Bedding's #BestMattressEver, and although I thought it looked great and like the idea adding a memory foam topper on their firm mattress if it was too firm, a quick Google search revealed many people are having a hard time getting them to take the mattress back during the trial period if they didn't like it and some people are having a hard time getting them to honor their warranty. I don't want to deal with that.

I am seriously considering the Eco Terra bed you discussed here , but most people tell me springs are no good for larger people. Still, I like the idea of having a bed that is suitable for people of different weights. Also, they seem to be great at honoring their return period (well, they were for the one person i found who returned it) but I have found no information about people needing to use their warranty. If I decide on this bed, should I go for the medium firm due to my size or does size really not matter with this bed?

Luma Sleep Mattress (mattress only). This bed looks similar to the Eco Terra, but does not have as much latex in the comfort layer. EDIT: It is $100 cheaper though and they are willing to make the bed with the combi-zone spring system (which they recommend for someone my size). Add the Mattress Underground discount and this may be the way to go.

Do you have any other recommendations for me to look at?

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Last edit: by drog.

It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 12:53 #2

I feel like I am in the same position as you. I am a bigger person too, I'm 6 ft, 305 pounds. I've been researching mattresses for about a year now and have yet to pull the trigger. I've been close a few times, but right before I did, i would read some negative things and back out.

I seriously considered Brooklyn Bedding BME. I was getting ready to buy, but I heard from from three different mattress reviewers who each said they wouldn't recommend it for me. Plus I've read a lot of people had issues with returns. But I've also read a lot of people who didn't have any issues. It seems like it's about 50/50 with BB.

I am really close to pulling the trigger on an OSO mattress. The only thing holding me up is I believe it is only 10 inches thick, so I am worried that's not thick enough for me because I'm so big. But I called them directly and spoke to someone on the first try. A message came up saying the reps were all busy, but I stayed on the line through the message and someone answered right of way. He said weight should not be an issue with this mattress regardless if it's 10 inches. But he said just try it and if I didn't like it they have a good return policy.

I'll be interested in what choice you make so please keep us updated.

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It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 17:44 #3

Hi drog,

Welcome back!

I purchased an Ultimate Dreams mattress. It did not offer nearly enough support, stretching my back in really bad ways and it was very uncomfortable in the shoulders.


I’m sorry your Ultimate Dreams didn’t work out for you. If I remember correctly, you chose the Ultra Dreams Latex (3” of Talalay on top of polyfoam core with the tight quilt on top). I remember you stated you thought that you over-analyzed and went too soft (28 ILD versus 32 ILD), which may have been the case for someone with a higher BMI, or just your particular preference.

I ended up flipping the mattress over, and while certainly not comfortable it did not cause any pain that way


This would tend to lend support to your supposition that you chose too soft for your upper comfort layers.

Fast forward a few years and I've had issues with sciatica (couldn't get out of bed for a month) and a few months later had to have back surgery to relieve another pinched nerve (took a few months to recover).


I also recall you had started taking Humira, so I’m sorry to learn that you’ve continued to have some issues with inflammation and your back. I know that can be frustrating and make mattress shopping even more difficult.

I love the firm yet soft feel of memory foam but hate feeling stuck. With that in mind I think I would love some sort of a memory foam hybrid bed but I have not found anything suitable for someone my size in the price range I can afford. The most important factors in a bed for me is to minimize pressure points and have a healthy sleep environment for the nerves in my back.


While you may love sinking into your mattress, your experience seems to be showing that you respond better to a bit of firmer surface support. There is more about primary or "deep" support and secondary or "surface" support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the "roles" of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between "support" and "pressure relief" and "feel" although this may be more than you really need to know to choose a mattress that is a good "match" for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences).

Two of the more important links in the mattress shopping tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to buy a suitable mattress that is the best "match" in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability, durability, and value.

Of course the ideal would be to have both suitable support/alignment and comfort/pressure relief in a mattress, but if you have to choose one over the other then I would choose support/alignment. There is some great information in this PHD thesis by Vincent+Verhaer (who is one of a group of researchers that I greatly respect) about the importance of good spinal alignment that clearly indicates that for healthy individuals it has the single biggest effect on the depth and quality of sleep and recovery for healthy individuals. Having proper alignment doesn’t necessarily mean that a mattress needs to feel hard like a board, and in your situation you certainly would want some surface comfort along with this deep support.

As you’re in a higher BMI range, the key will be finding componentry that will be of appropriate quality for your specific situation, which will then give you the best chance at have a successful comfort life, so I would always make sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components. Those in a higher BMI range want to be especially prudent in the choice of their components. For those in a higher BMI range, there is more information about selecting a mattress in the durability guidelines here . Specifically, if your BMI is 30 or higher:

Higher BMI ranges will need more durable materials and components in a mattress and in a BMI range of 30 or higher I would include any 1.8 lb polyfoam or 4 lb memory foam as a "lower quality/density" material (relative to a higher BMI only) and minimize their use to a total of "about an inch or so or less" in the mattress.

Polyurethane foam: If your mattress is one sided then I would look for 2.0 lb per cubic foot density or higher. If the mattress is two sided then I would use a minimum density of 1.8 lbs per cubic foot or higher.

Memory foam (or gel memory foam): If your mattress is one sided then I would make sure that any memory foam is at least 5 lb per cubic foot. If the mattress is two sided then I would use a minimum density of 4 lbs per cubic foot.

There is no one firmness level that is "best for backs" in general because it would depend on the body type, sleeping style, and individual preferences of the person.

I recently spoke with someone at Dreamfoam Bedding who recommended their Eurotop bed with a level 3 firmness for me after discussing my issues I'm having with my bed, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself to go with this company again due to my disappointment with my current bed.


If you’re referring to the Ultimate Dreams Eurotop, then this would have a similar configuration to your current mattress, but it would use higher density foam (2 lb versus 1.8 lb) for the polyfoam core. The firmness of the upper latex layer they’re recommending is more along the lines of what was originally suggested to you (3.5 in the Ultimate Dreams, where you ended up selecting the softer 6.5 instead). I don’t know that this mattress is enough of a difference based upon your results of sleeping better upon the mattress flipped over with the polyfoam core.

And I wouldn’t necessarily base your opinion of an entire company (this or any other) based upon your disappointment with your current mattress, as the materials your mattress used were a good quality, but the comfort ended up not being appropriate for your specific needs. I would focus instead upon componentry that is appropriate for your BMI.

I looked and Brooklyn Bedding's #BestMattressEver, and although I thought it looked great and like the idea adding a memory foam topper on their firm mattress if it was too firm,


This would have a 2 lb polyfoam core over multiple layers (2” each) of Dunlop and Talalay latex, but again I would be cautious of choosing something with the expectation that you’d be adding a topper onto it, creating even more of a softer surface comfort which you’ve shown to not necessarily respond as well to. But you are correct that you can always take a firmer mattress and add some plushness to it, but you really can’t take a mattress that is too soft and then make it much harder (as we discussed previously with your wool topper questions).

a quick Google search revealed many people are having a hard time getting them to take the mattress back during the trial period if they didn't like it and some people are having a hard time getting them to honor their warranty. I don't want to deal with that.


I responded to a similar question a few weeks ago. Brooklyn Bedding (and Dreamfoam Bedding – they are part of the same company) is one of the manufacturing members of this site which means that I know them very well and that I believe them are among the best values in the country. There are no issues with returns at either BB or DF (if a return is performed, it is handled through a local donation). I went back and looked at the “reviews” on yelp and I have to admit they only further reinforce what I’m always writing about the unreliability of using reviews ( post #13 ), pro or con, as any sort of educated analysis of a product. Complaints about having to keep the product at least 30 days before being able to return (having to do this is spelled out clearly in the BB returns page ), or wanting to be able to return a mattress or get a credit after the 120 day trial period, or not liking the comfort (comfort preference isn’t part of a warranty from a mattress company), or complaints about returns being difficult (returns are handled by local donations – you don’t have to box it up and send it back) reflect more on the lack of responsibility of the individuals making the complaints rather than the quality of the product. I understand that people can be upset for reasons, real or imagined, and mistakes can happen with service or with a product, but reviews like these to me seem to be more about people attempting to recruit an army to their side and turn their opinion into fact, as if creating an online post somehow accomplishes just that.

Brooklyn Bedding and Dreamfoam are two of the largest online mattress manufacturers, selling tens of thousands of mattresses a year, and these 11 negative “reviews” on yelp about them run counter to my actual experience with them over the years, and I can point to dozens of times they have gone above and beyond to assist customers with real concerns or problems. The kind of integrity they display is more rare in the industry today and is one of the reasons that most people (including me) have such a high opinion of them, so I personally wouldn’t have a concern with either their service or return policies.

I am seriously considering the Eco Terra bed you discussed here , but most people tell me springs are no good for larger people.


I’m not sure form where you’re getting this advice, but I certainly wouldn’t agree with it. While high BMI presents special challenges and generally requires firmer materials (in the support layers especially), this could be either firmer latex, polyfoam or innersprings (the type of support component would be a personal preference and in the right design either could be suitable) or even a zoned construction. The same overall guidelines apply with higher weights though that PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) along with using high quality durable materials that will maintain their feel and performance for longer periods of time are the way to make the best choices. Heavier people in general will need firmer and thicker comfort layers and firmer support layers than those who are lighter and because no materials will last as long with much higher weights the quality and durability of the materials and components is even more important than normal. I wouldn't "rule out" any types of mattress using springs or foams for the support core and base your choices on your own personal testing. Post #3 here has more information and suggestions about heavier weights that is worth reading.

Also, they seem to be great at honoring their return period (well, they were for the one person i found who returned it) but I have found no information about people needing to use their warranty.


Again, using “reviews” to make your decision is the least reliable manner of which to choose a product. If you had found one review that said the company was poor at honoring their return policy, would this suddenly make them a product unworthy of your consideration? I wouldn't think so. And just because you can’t find information about someone having to use their warranty (the company wouldn’t make those statistics public) wouldn’t tell you anything, good or bad, about the appropriateness of the mattress for your use. Instead, I would recommend that you focus on the materials contained within the mattress, as this will give you your best chance for success and durability.

If I decide on this bed, should I go for the medium firm due to my size or does size really not matter with this bed?


Yes, your BMI and specific back issues will matter and if you decide to purchase from this company I would recommend a phone call and speak with them, as they will be in the best position to provide advice for what they offer that they think might work best for you, as they will be the most familiar with the products/configurations that they offer.

Luma Sleep Mattress (mattress only). This bed looks similar to the Eco Terra, but does not have as much latex in the comfort layer, there is only one firmness level, and the warranty isn't as long.


The Luma Mattress is offering in three designations of comfort (Soft, Medium-Firm and Firm) where the latex layers are changed with their ILD (19, 28, 36). They even offer the option to upgrade to a Combi-Zone innerspring unit. They are a member here of the site, with over 60 year of mattress experience, much of that in the latex industry. With your past experience, you may desire trying something with fewer comfort layers on top with a bit firmer of a surface plushness. If you were considering a configuration like this, they certainly would be worth a phone call and you could explain your past experiences with the Ultimate Dreams and see if they had any guidance for you.

Regarding warranties, they in general are not nearly as important to me as knowing the materials because the reason most people need to replace a mattress is not a manufacturing defect but the loss of comfort and/or support, which is not covered by a warranty. Knowing the materials in a mattress will tell you how long the original qualities of a mattress will last relative to other types of materials, and are much more important than the time period for replacement of defects in workmanship. A ten-year warranty is the "standard" for many brands in North America, although I would be fine with a five year warranty on a product I know used high quality and durable materials.

As an aside, are you still using your wire grid foundation, and if so, how is that holding up?

If you think that you’d do better by trying out some mattresses in person, let me know your zip code and I’ll do my best to see if I am aware of any better local options for you to test out.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 17:47 #4

So I talked to someone at Luma. He recommended I get the firm with the combi-zone coil system because of my size. Getting the slumber system kind of pushes it out of my comfortable budget, but I think I would prefer a memory foam topper anyway.

In any case, it's down to this or the Eco Terra. The extra reinforcement in the center of the bed that Luma offers has me leaning towards it.

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It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 17:58 #5

As an aside, are you still using your wire grid foundation, and if so, how is that holding up?

If you think that you’d do better by trying out some mattresses in person, let me know your zip code and I’ll do my best to see if I am aware of any better local options for you to test out.

Phoenix


Yes, the foundation is rock solid, though it can be a bit noisy. I need to lubricate it.

My zip code is 20723. There was not much in the area the last time I looked for a mattress. Also, I think I was mistaken about a few things on the Luma so i corrected a few things.

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It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 18:16 #6

Hi killowatt59,

I've been close a few times, but right before I did, i would read some negative things and back out. I seriously considered Brooklyn Bedding BME. I was getting ready to buy, but I heard from from three different mattress reviewers who each said they wouldn't recommend it for me.


While most reviewers are certainly well meaning, because most reviews aren't relevant to anyone but the reviewer and can be "influenced" so easily and in so many ways, for the most part (with only few exceptions) mattress reviews are a classic example of garbage in / garbage out even though the "garbage" may be well meaning and true to the experience of the person writing the review. You are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about using anyone else's suggestions, experiences or reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful (see post #13 here ).

I understand that too much information can lead to "information overwhelm" and "paralysis by analysis" which can lead to some poor choices as well (sometimes made out of frustration or fatigue). One of the most important parts of your research will be to learn "just enough" to be able to recognize the manufacturers and retailers that already know what you would otherwise need to learn, and realize that this will provide you with better guidance than what a “reviewer” might recommend to for you.

Plus I've read a lot of people had issues with returns. But I've also read a lot of people who didn't have any issues. It seems like it's about 50/50 with BB.


I understand your hesitancy at “pulling the trigger” on a purchase and your desire for someone to tell you what will work best for you, but your continued overweighting of online “reviews” (and the inaccuracy of them as I’ve posted to you in my previous replies) will do more harm than good and only serve to drive you further “down the rabbit hole”, because if you’re looking for something that is 100% positive you’ll be searching forever (or you’ll have found a product that is working hard to scrub anything negative said about them) and never make a decision. It would be better for you to focus on componentry for a higher BMI as we've discussed before and then if you do decide to purchase something, make sure that they do have a good return policy just in case it doesn’t turn out as well as you had expected.

And regarding Brooklyn Bedding, as opposed to a “50/50” proposition, their current return rates is less than 5% of sales (of course that doesn’t mean that they would be the perfect product for you). Even companies producing mattresses using very low quality materials don’t have return rates of 50%.

I am really close to pulling the trigger on an OSO mattress.


They do offer a good return policy, and would be interesting for you to try with their two different firmness levels in one.

Phoenix
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It's bed time again 17 Apr 2017 18:48 #7

Hi drog,

In any case, it's down to this or the Eco Terra. The extra reinforcement in the center of the bed that Luma offers has me leaning towards it.


Both items would be using good quality materials.

My zip code is 20723. There was not much in the area the last time I looked for a mattress.


Subject to first confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list that you wish to visit is completely transparent (see this article ) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here ... the better options or possibilities I'm aware of in and around the Washington, DC area (which has some overlap with the Baltimore list) are listed in post #2 here , just in case you missed a few of these before.

Also, I think I was mistaken about a few things on the Luma so i corrected a few things.


No worries :) , and no need to correct unless you want to (which I see you already did).

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

It's bed time again 19 Apr 2017 19:33 #8

It seems Mattresses.net has something very close to what I want for the price I want (3 inches of latex over a combi-zone coil system), they don't seem to offer it in 36 ILD latex however, and they have not responded to my inquiry about that yet.

Luma has been very responsive, but I'm not sure if 1.5 inches of latex over the combi-zone coil system is enough in their base mattress and their slumber system is more than what I was hoping to spend. I was planning to go all out and get something like the Christeli Lux Estate if I had to go over $1,200. I had also been thinking about getting the base Luma mattress and going with a third party topper instead of the slumber system, but the price of the base mattress is now $100 more expensive so that is not such a great deal anymore.

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It's bed time again 20 Apr 2017 06:17 #9

It seems Mattresses.net has something very close to what I want for the price I want (3 inches of latex over a combi-zone coil system), they don't seem to offer it in 36 ILD latex however, and they have not responded to my inquiry about that yet.

Luma has been very responsive, but I'm not sure if 1.5 inches of latex over the combi-zone coil system is enough in their base mattress and their slumber system is more than what I was hoping to spend. I was planning to go all out and get something like the Christeli Lux Estate if I had to go over $1,200. I had also been thinking about getting the base Luma mattress and going with a third party topper instead of the slumber system, but the price of the base mattress is now $100 more expensive so that is not such a great deal anymore.


Yeah I saw that Luma raised their prices as well which took it out of my price range. Take a look at the Natural Escape mattress from MyGreenMattress. Right now they are running an Earth Day sale and it also has the zoned coil system you are looking for. While the standard configuration has a relatively soft layer of latex on top I have seen others say that they can swap this for a firmer layer if requested. Tim has been super responsive to my questions so you should be able to get this confirmed pretty quickly.

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It's bed time again 20 Apr 2017 06:37 #10

Thanks. Definitely interesting. I will have to see if they can firm up the mattress for me.

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Last edit: by drog.
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