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Alignment Issues? 01 Feb 2017 13:20 #21

  • Maddog29
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good question on the pillow. I have been using the same pillow from the start (the Nest Easy Breather pillow). I just tried the latex pillow one night early on and it wasn't for me... but to be fair, one night probably wasn't giving it a enough time:)

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Alignment Issues? 01 Feb 2017 14:03 #22

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Hi Maddog29,

Thanks for the follow up. I was just curious, as pillows can have more of an impact than most people realize on the cervical/thoracic and shoulder area.

Phoenix
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Alignment Issues? 15 Feb 2017 23:24 #23

  • barneycalhoun
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In reading some other threads, it appears that a number of men have problems with thicker, softer layering. Side sleepers, in the 180-200 lb. range, seem to be happy with a 2 inch soft layer rather than 3 inch layers. Just something I have noted in my readings here.

What further interests me about this thread is the pocketed coil system. I'm beginning to think that latex over PCS is a good solution for side sleeping men. Any info about the coils specs in Maddog's Lumina? For example: make, model, gauge.

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Last edit: by barneycalhoun.

Alignment Issues? 16 Feb 2017 10:23 #24

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Hi barneycalhoun,

In reading some other threads, it appears that a number of men have problems with thicker, softer layering. Side sleepers, in the 180-200 lb. range, seem to be happy with a 2 inch soft layer rather than 3 inch layers. Just something I have noted in my readings here.

Even with the number of threads you may have read through, I’d caution against using the experience of others, on this site or elsewhere, as a reliable indicator of what might be applicable for you or others, as nothing can replace one's own careful personal testing of a product. Even two individuals with the exact same dimensions and mass can have dramatically different needs to achieve personalized comfort. Additionally, the top 2” or 3” layer of a mattress is just part of a total sleep system that works in unison with all of the other layers (although changes in the upper layers are the most noticeable in any component mattress system).

I would be remiss if I didn’t comment that overall, plushness is overprescribed in the mattress industry, and alignment issues can arise not only from poor support systems, but also from too thick or too soft comfort layers (as you alluded). The ideal is to have both suitable support/alignment and comfort/pressure relief in a mattress. But if you have to choose one over the other then I would choose support/alignment. There is some great information in this PHD thesis by Vincent+Verhaer (who is one of a group of researchers that I greatly respect) about the importance of good spinal alignment that clearly indicates that for healthy individuals it has the single biggest effect on the depth and quality of sleep and recovery for healthy individuals. Having proper alignment doesn’t necessarily mean that a mattress needs to feel hard like a board, and in any situation you certainly would want some surface comfort along with this deep support.

What further interests me about this thread is the pocketed coil system. I'm beginning to think that latex over PCS is a good solution for side sleeping men. Any info about the coils specs in Maddog's Lumina? For example: make, model, gauge.

You are correct that latex over a Marshall/pocketed coil system is a very popular combination, for all populations. I don’t have the specifics of the pocketed spring unit in the Luma system you referenced, but by appearances I believe it to be one of the Quantum Edge units from Leggett and Platt. These are high-quality spring units and are rarely the weak link in a mattress. Many manufacturers choose to keep the information about their spring units (producers, gauge of steel, turns) proprietary, as unless you are extremely knowledgeable about innerspring and their designs (which would be very few individuals in the country) the information would only serve those who are attempting to copy their design. With that being said, Luma is very transparent about their materials and I’m sure they would provide you with as much information as they were comfortable doing.

If you’re interested, there are many factors that determine how a particular innerspring will feel and perform inside a specific mattress design. There is more about the different types of innersprings in this article and in post #10 here but I would pay much more attention to your own careful and objective testing which will tell you how the innerspring performs in combination with the other layers and materials in a mattress and to the quality of the materials above the innerspring which is normally the weakest link in a mattress. Post #16 also talks about different innerspring designs and how they work.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix. Reason: Updating link to https: status

Alignment Issues? 16 Feb 2017 14:58 #25

  • davo32683
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Interested in this. Torn between the Ultimate Hybrid from Arizona Mattress and the Luma.

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Alignment Issues? 16 Feb 2017 16:14 #26

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Hi davo32683,

Interested in this. Torn between the Ultimate Hybrid from Arizona Mattress and the Luma.

The Arizona Premium Ultimate Hybrid uses a Leggett and Platt Quantum pocketed coil innerspring unit, above which is 3” of latex. You can choose between firm, medium and plush, and either natural Dunlop or natural Talalay. The covering is a zippered bamboo/wool stretch knit. There is a 60 day trial period.

The closest Luma mattress to the Ultimate hybrid would be their Latex Hybrid Slumber System. This uses a pocketed spring unit with a 1” base of polyfoam (1.8 Lb High Density). On top of this spring unit is 1.5” of blended Talalay latex. The cover is a tencel stretch knit. On top of this is a separate topper called their Talalay Latex Comfort layer that is 3” of blended Talalay. Mattress comfort choices can be made in plush, medium firm, or firm. There is a one year comfort/return period.

Both of these mattresses use good quality materials and there would be no “weak links” in their construction. I think highly of both of these companies, and Arizona Premium is a member here of the site.

Every mattress purchase though includes more than just the "material value" of the mattress and all the many tradeoffs involved in the mattress itself as well as all the other options and services that are part of every mattress purchase are all part of what I call your " personal value equation " . There is also more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here but in the end everyone will need to decide what is most important to them and attach a "value" to all the objective, subjective, and intangible factors that are part of any final decision. There is no "best and worst" any longer at this point ... only best for YOU. In terms of quality and value there are really no "bad choices" or "mistakes" here and there are no clear winners between your finalists, so the odds are higher that any one of them would be a good choice that you would be happy with.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix. Reason: Updating link to https: status

Alignment Issues? 19 Feb 2017 19:18 #27

  • Maddog29
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I've been sleeping with the extra the 3" 28 ild comfort layer for over a week now and wanted to provide an update. Alignment is good and no low back pain! Shoulders are a bit sore but less sore that with the 19 ild. I wonder if too soft of a comfort layer was bending my arm in a funny way and creating pain. What is surprising to me is that I can't find much evidence on various latex mattress seller websites saying that a 28 ild latex would be appropriate for a side sleeper. Even on this site I can't find people that land on an ild this firm for side sleeping. what is more difficult is that I probably wouldn't have landed on this ild with more local testing either (since the softer ild always felt better to me until I spend a full night on it). Very appreciative for return and exchange policies! I won't know for a few weeks yet but hopefully I finally found the right fit after over 4 months of trial and error.

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Alignment Issues? 20 Feb 2017 13:49 #28

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Hi Maddog29,

I've been sleeping with the extra the 3" 28 ild comfort layer for over a week now and wanted to provide an update. Alignment is good and no low back pain! Shoulders are a bit sore but less sore that with the 19 ild. I wonder if too soft of a comfort layer was bending my arm in a funny way and creating pain.

Thanks for the update! I’m happy that things are moving in a better direction for you and going to a slightly firmer upper layer (28 vs. 19 ILD) seems to be working out.

There could be multiple reasons for the slightly firmer layer working better. If the 19 ILD could have allowed you to “sink in” a bit too much and it could not have supported your torso enough and this could have placed most stress upon your shoulders. It also could have caused the issue that you stated of allowing your shoulder to rest in an awkward position. It also could not have provided enough surface support for you.

What is surprising to me is that I can't find much evidence on various latex mattress seller websites saying that a 28 ild latex would be appropriate for a side sleeper. Even on this site I can't find people that land on an ild this firm for side sleeping.

There really is no one best ILD or combination of materials that are best for side sleepers, so at least on this site it’s more of an explanation of averages, but then reliance upon your own careful personal testing. There isn’t a formula that can predict with any certainty what type of layering you may do best with that can possibly be more accurate than your own personal experience and without this the next best way to decide on the design of a mattress is to use the "averages" of a manufacturer for people of your weight range, body type, sleeping style, and personal preferences. These "averages" may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on the specific designs and options that they have available (including all the components such as the cover or quilting layers which can also have a significant effect on how the mattress feels and performs not just the latex or foam layers).

Using a little bit of a firmer layer on top is something that I discuss frequently on the site – what I call dominant layering . But again this would be only as general guidance and not an absolute as to what would be best for every individual.

I’m looking forward to your future updates, and I hope they’re positive!

Phoenix
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Alignment Issues? 22 Feb 2017 12:14 #29

  • barneycalhoun
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I noticed, in the composite photo of Maddog's back, that his back muscles seemed to contracted in the misaligned picture. His muscles seemed more relaxed (in the more aligned picture) without the softer 3 inch topper.

Anyway....
Maddog says he's happy (alignment wise) with the 28 topper, but still experiences some pressure discomfort.

The question I have is, what if he added a thin soft topper? He currently has 4.5 inches medium over PCS. Could another inch or two of soft latex relieve the pressure? OTH, would 6 inches of latex negatively effect the PCS performance?

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Last edit: by barneycalhoun.

Alignment Issues? 22 Feb 2017 13:05 #30

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Hi barneycalhoun,

I noticed, in the composite photo of Maddog's back, that his back muscles seemed to contracted in the misaligned picture. His muscles seemed more relaxed without the softer 3 inch topper.

Unless you were measuring the activity in the area via electromyography (EMG), there’d be no way to determine the difference in muscle tone between two photos. Slight differences in posture and lighting can contribute to these differences in appearance as well. It is true that there would be a small difference in muscle micro-contractions to help maintain a more neutral alignment in different mattress configurations.

Anyway....Maddog says he's happy (alignment wise) with the 28 topper, but still experiences some pressure discomfort. The question I have is, what if he added a thin soft topper? He currently has 4.5 inches medium over PCS. Could another inch or two of soft latex relieve the pressure? OTH, would 6 inches of latex negatively effect the PCS performance?

It’s entirely possible that someone could have a bit more benefit from adding a small amount of softer foam on top of such a configuration, but nothing can replace one’s own personal testing, and from afar I’d personally avoid too much “theory at a distance”, and instead trust one’s own personal experiences and results.

Phoenix
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