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General Questions 25 Dec 2016 20:05 #1

  • Gman52
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You have a great website and have shed some much-needed light into the dark world of mattress shopping. My wife and I have for years purchased your standard run of the mill, overpriced, inner spring/poly/latex blend of mattresses from local mattress companies only to have them start sagging in less than 5 years. So, this time around we are looking into getting an all latex mattress with cotton/wool exterior fabric. I’ve been researching as much as I can on line which has lead me to your awesome website. In my searches and talking with manufacturers via email this has led me to some questions that I hope you can answer.

1. The company I work for is “ISO certified”, but I see how we conduct business 364 days out of the year and based on that I feel we don’t deserve the certification. But, the one day out of the year when the inspector is in house to renew our “certification” we follow the book to the “T"; we do what we say and we say what we do. This makes our customers happy because they see that little ISO certification on all the documents. Is this the same for the mattress industry and companies that upcharge for “certified organic latex”? Is this a new and improved marketing gimmick for the internet age so they can charge more for those mattresses?

2. This might be an impossible question to answer, but I’ll ask it anyway. In my searches for a 100% all latex mattresses with wool/cotton cover I’ve come across a wide range of prices for what I perceive to be equally made mattresses based on size, materials used, number of latex layers, overall mattress height etc. (Savvy Rest Unity Pillowtop 12” thick in king - $5349, Plush Beds 12” Botanical Bliss and Cozy Pure 12” Comfort Zone, both in king – both approximately $3000). Is the Savvy mattress really worth a $2300 mark up? All the blogs and all the forums and, I’m sorry to say, even your website says ‘a pure 100% latex mattress is very expensive’. How is a consumer to know what that means? Very expensive is a relative term but we as consumers don’t have a starting point for what a 100% all latex mattress should cost in various sizes and thicknesses and to know whether we are paying more than we should. I’m not looking for exact numbers because that is impossible, but a general guideline would help. Or does it really come down to personal taste or gut feel? Maybe the Savvy mattress upcharge is worth it because of the peripherals they offer for purchasing from them. Just thinking out loud here.

3. I’m a side sleeper and I’m 6’ tall 240 lbs. My wife is ½ my size and a side sleeper as well. It seems logical to me that we would benefit from a split mattress with different comfort and support layers. Any recommendations in number of latex layers and overall mattress height? I was under the impression that me being a bigger guy that I would not want to “bottom out” to the support layer, so there for I would need a thick (minimum of 3”) comfort layer if I were to go with 2 layers of latex and possibly get a progressive system with 3 or maybe even 4 layers of latex. Thoughts? By the way, what does 4 layers of latex give you that 3 layers does not, if all layers are 3" thick? Is it possible to have "more" support or "more" comfort with more layers in those respective regions or ILD ranges??

4. Wouldn’t you agree that toppers or add on layers that go on the outside of a mattress would defeat the benefits of having a cotton/wool top layer on a latex mattress? Shouldn't all of your layers be contained within the confines of the outside fabric of the mattress to take full advantage of all the benefits of the mattress and it's construction?

5. This is just a hmmmm question and has no real value other than "I wonder how come" kind of thing. What does a $35,000 mattress get you that a $5000 mattress or even a factory direct $3000 mattress can not? Shifman has a mattress (Ultimate Splendor King Mattress Set) specifically for Bloomingdales and none of the information on the Bloomingdales website gives you any more information into the construction of the mattress than if you go to a City Mattress website looking for details on a $5000 Simmons mattress. I even went directly to the Shifman website and there was even less information there. Other than the "finest of materials" such as "cashmere, silk and angora" and an "8-way hand tied box spring", what are you really getting in the construction of this mattress? The biggest tell for me that this is more mattress jargon is the fact that Bloomingdales has this (and many other overly priced mattresses) on "sale" for 50% off....hmmmmmm, something seems amiss. Do all these "high end" materials prevent any more sagging than mattresses that do not have them? Do the wealthy, whom I am assuming are the only ones that can afford these types of mattresses, not care or not sleep in them long enough to notice the sagging? Or perhaps they do have the finest of the finest materials and will never sag, but the wealthy don't care about the cost because the comfort materials "feel" expensive and maybe that's all that matters. Just curious how the other half lives.

Thank you for your time,

Gavin

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General Questions 26 Dec 2016 10:17 #2

  • phoenix
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Hi Gman52,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum! :)

I’ll do my best to answer your questions, which cover a wide range of topics, without getting too far “down the rabbit hole”, as much of what you’re asking is subjective and not related to specific questions about a particular mattress you’re considering.

Is this the same for the mattress industry and companies that upcharge for “certified organic latex”? Is this a new and improved marketing gimmick for the internet age so they can charge more for those mattresses?

A certified organic mattress is not a “marketing gimmick”, but something that is in fact tangible and real. Whether or not a product that has this certification (and the extra cost associated with obtaining and maintaining this certification) has any value to you is something you’d have to decide based upon your own personal value equation . You can often find products using the exact same or similar materials that haven't gone through the process of becoming organically certified at more reasonable prices.

To help you learn a bit about organic certifications and what they actually encompass, I discuss that most people that are looking for an "organic" mattress or materials are usually concerned more with "safety" than whether the materials have an actual organic certification and they usually aren't aware that an organic certification isn't the same thing as a safety certification. There is more information about the three different levels of organic certifications in post #2 here and some of the benefits of an organic certification in post #3 here and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications such as Oeko-tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold, C2C, and CertiPUR-US in post #2 here and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you for environmental, social, or personal reasons or whether a "safety" certification is enough.

All the latex you are likely to encounter (either Dunlop or Talalay that is made with either natural or synthetic rubber or a blend of both) will also have a reliable certification such as Oeko-Tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold or C2C and based on actual testing I would consider any type or blend of latex (regardless of whether it is synthetic, natural, or blended) to be a very "safe" material in terms of harmful substances and VOC's (offgassing). Any type or blend of latex will also be a very durable material relative to other types of foam such as memory foam or polyfoam as well.

With latex the benefits of an organic certification can be exaggerated, and in many cases false claims of a certification (greenwashing) can be based on misleading or inaccurate information and are often used as a justification to charge much more for a mattress, compared to other similar mattresses that would be just as suitable and just as safe but are in much lower budget ranges. The impetus is upon you to become educated about these certifications and determine what “carries the most weight” for your own personal consideration.

In my searches for a 100% all latex mattresses with wool/cotton cover I’ve come across a wide range of prices for what I perceive to be equally made mattresses based on size, materials used, number of latex layers, overall mattress height etc. (Savvy Rest Unity Pillowtop 12” thick in king - $5349, Plush Beds 12” Botanical Bliss and Cozy Pure 12” Comfort Zone, both in king – both approximately $3000). Is the Savvy mattress really worth a $2300 mark up?

Again, that comes down to your own careful and personal evaluation of each product and company. All three of these brands use good quality materials, but all three are slightly different in construction and source their latex from a few different sources. The Savvy Rest you mentioned uses a separate pillowtop called the Unity Pillowtop for the upper Talalay latex layer (in a totally separate encasement) from Radium that is Cradle to Cradle Gold certified. Their Dunlop (GOLS certified) comes in 3” cores (instead of 3” pieces sliced from 6” cores) and it’s a little more configurable than the other two companies you mentioned, for a total of 12” of latex. The Plush Beds uses a 6” Dunlop core (GOLS certified) with two Talalay layers on top of that from Talalay Global (Oeko-Tex certified), for a total of 11” of latex. All of these layers are contained in a single mattress. The Cozy Pure uses all Dunlop latex (GOLS certified) with a 6” core, 3” transition layer and 2” of convoluted latex on top of that. This is all contained within a single mattress, that is made so that it can be flipped should you desire a firmer sleeping surface. All three mattresses use GOTS certified cotton for their covers and use wool to pass FR regulations.

While the quality of the componentry in all of the mattress you mentioned is certainly quite high, as you mentioned the Savvy Rest certainly falls into a bit of a “higher-end” price range, and you may be able to find some options online that provide a bit better value for the same or very similar products. You can make "value" comparisons between mattresses based on suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well) which in this case would be comparable since they are all latex mattresses, along with all the other parts (including pricing) of your personal value equation that are most important to you. This link to the site members who also offer latex configurable mattresses could be a good place to consider starting with mattress comparisons (Cozy Pure is a member of our site, which means that I do think highly of them).

All the blogs and all the forums and, I’m sorry to say, even your website says ‘a pure 100% latex mattress is very expensive’.

I don’t know why you would be "sorry" to mention this, as it is true that good latex foam is the most expensive foam to manufacture, whether it is blended synthetic, natural, Dunlop or Talalay.

How is a consumer to know what that means? Very expensive is a relative term but we as consumers don’t have a starting point for what a 100% all latex mattress should cost in various sizes and thicknesses and to know whether we are paying more than we should. I’m not looking for exact numbers because that is impossible, but a general guideline would help.

This is of course, as you mentioned, an impossible question to answer. There is no way to tell you what you “should” pay for a product, nor is the purpose of this forum to maintain a list of current pricing for the thousands of variations of latex mattresses available at any given point of time (which would be an impossibility due to the ever changing landscape of configurations or fluctuation market prices of raw latex). Even manufacturers have no set price for what latex “should” cost them from suppliers, as this can vary dramatically with the availability of the product which can be impacted by many things, including weather and raw material availability.

In the end, it is up to you to do a bit of your own personal research with the tools I provide here to gain a bit of a basic understanding of the products you’re considering, and in your case the differences between certifications and a determination of what personally is most important to you, and then look at products that contain these materials. Once you have narrowed it down to a few things that are important to you, it will be a bit easier for you to more objectively compare A to B and see if the extra cost affiliated with one brand versus another is worth it to you. To that end, the link I provided earlier to some of the online options of members on this forum (I think they compete well with the best in the industry ) can serve as a good reference point to help you make some important rankings within your own personal value equation. Of course, right now we’re simply mentioning componentry and not at all dealing with your personal comfort, which in the end is the most important part of your personal value equation.

I’m a side sleeper and I’m 6’ tall 240 lbs. My wife is ½ my size and a side sleeper as well. It seems logical to me that we would benefit from a split mattress with different comfort and support layers. Any recommendations in number of latex layers and overall mattress height?

Many people prefer a split configuration, especially when there is a large difference in the mass or sleeping styles of each individual using a mattress. The thickness of a mattress is just a side effect of the design and by itself isn't particularly meaningful because whether a thicker or thinner mattress would be better or worse for any particular person will depend on the specifics of the materials (type, firmness, etc.) and on all the other layers in the mattress. Thickness is only one of many specs that are used to make different mattresses that perform and feel differently and that makes a mattress suitable for one person and not another. There is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here . Regardless of how thick or thin a mattress may be ... the most important part of the "value" of a mattress is how suitable it is "as a whole" for your particular body type, sleeping positions, and preferences in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) regardless of how thick it may be.

I was under the impression that me being a bigger guy that I would not want to “bottom out” to the support layer, so there for I would need a thick (minimum of 3”) comfort layer if I were to go with 2 layers of latex and possibly get a progressive system with 3 or maybe even 4 layers of latex. Thoughts? By the way, what does 4 layers of latex give you that 3 layers does not, if all layers are 3" thick? Is it possible to have "more" support or "more" comfort with more layers in those respective regions or ILD ranges??

While these are all good questions and knowing the specs that can affect the quality and durability of the layers and components in a mattress is always important ... unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and components and their specs and different layering combinations and mattress designs and how they combine together and can translate them into your own "real life" experience that can be unique to you (which would generally be a very small percentage of people) ... I would tend to avoid using complex combinations of specifications to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you. When you try and choose a mattress based on complex combinations of specs or only based on specs for single layers or components that may not be as relevant or meaningful as you believe they are then the most common outcome is "information overload" and "paralysis by analysis".

As an alternative, the first place I would suggest to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones. If you are considering staying with latex you’d be able to skip some of the sections dealing with other componentry.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well he will sleep), durability (how long he will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation (which I talked about earlier) that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

While again nobody can speak to how any specific mattress will "feel" for someone else or whether it will be a good "match" in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances and you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress ... outside of PPP (which is the most important part of "value"), the next most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can't see or "feel" and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new so I would always make sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase. Again, if you are considering staying with an all-latex mattress, the materials you’d be considering would certainly be higher quality.

If you’re able, one of the advantages of trying mattresses locally is that you can try many different types and styles and combinations of materials and components and firmness levels and compare them to each other in "real time" based on your actual experience rather than just "theory" instead of trying one online mattress at a time and not knowing how it compares to the other mattresses that you could have tried or purchased instead.

Some good local testing will also give you a much better sense of the many different types of materials and components that are used in mattresses and some reference points about the types of mattresses ( see this article ) and general firmness levels you tend to prefer which can help you narrow down your choices regardless of whether you end up purchasing locally or online.

When you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and "feel" of the materials they are using (type of latex, resilience, firmness etc.) and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about "matching" their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else.

A good online retailer or manufacturer will generally make suggestions that they honestly believe have the best chance of success based on the information you provide them when you talk to them on the phone because this is in both your own and their best interests but again ... at the end of the day the only way to know for certain whether any specific mattress is a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP will be based on your own careful testing and/or your own personal experience so if you can't test a specific mattress in person then the options you have available after a purchase to either exchange the mattress or individual layers or components or return the mattress for a refund (and any costs involved) would generally become a more important part of your personal value equation just in case a mattress you purchase doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for.

Wouldn’t you agree that toppers or add on layers that go on the outside of a mattress would defeat the benefits of having a cotton/wool top layer on a latex mattress? Shouldn't all of your layers be contained within the confines of the outside fabric of the mattress to take full advantage of all the benefits of the mattress and it's construction?

The layers closest to your skin will always have the greatest impact upon your comfort. If you have a mattress using a cotton/wool encasement and then you place a memory foam topper on that which uses a stretch-knit cover, you certainly would impact the feel/impact of the cotton/wool covering (and the layers beneath that covering). Conversely, if you use a latex topper that uses a cotton/wool covering that is similar to what the base mattress uses, you’d still have the ability to experience the unique characteristics of that layer, as it would be the uppermost layer of the mattress. The choice between using a separate topper or selecting a mattress that contains “everything in one” would be more of a personal preference as opposed to a better/worse choice, as long as you’re aware of the potential impact that the topper will have upon the base mattress beneath it.

This is just a hmmmm question and has no real value other than "I wonder how come" kind of thing. What does a $35,000 mattress get you that a $5000 mattress or even a factory direct $3000 mattress can not?

This is always a fun question to ponder and one that gets asked every once in a while. Post #2 here deals with some of the common questions typically associated with this range of “ultra expensive” mattresses. Spending more doesn’t necessarily guarantee a longer-lasting mattress or dictate that you’ll sleep any better, but some of these mattress do include unique materials and some detailed methods of construction. As you mentioned, it’s always fun to investigate “how the other half lives”.

I know this has been a rather long response, but I wanted to do my best to provide some answers to all of your questions. If you’re considering an all-latex mattress, you’re certainly considering a good starting point. After reading through the mattress shopping tutorial and some of the other links I’ve provided, I would next suggest for you to search out any local vendors carrying all-latex products for you to sample. Out of the three brands you previously mentioned, Savvy Rest will be the one most readily available in showrooms for use as a reference.

Good luck in your search!

Phoenix
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General Questions 27 Dec 2016 07:28 #3

  • Gman52
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Phoenix,
Thanks for the quick reply and you do make a lot of good points. I just need to get out a test some of my options. I know I will never go with one of the "S" brand mattresses again...been there, done that!

The only other local (Rochester, NY) option that I know of for factory direct is Jamestown Mattress. I've always heard good things about them but was always "lured" by the marketing of the "S" brands. But since I've grown tired of the same ole promises from the evil empire of mattress construction I will definitely be making a visit to one of JM satellite stores. Purchasing local is also appealing because I can actually test the bedding. If Jamestown Mattress turns out to be a bust then I will resort to on-line. I am in no hurry so I am taking my time. I really want this to be a worth while purchase that lasts years and gives my wife and I the comfort and relaxation that we have sorely missed out on for all these years.

Other than the online companies I mentioned before I find FlexComfort (Natural Comfort Latex Mattress Collection) to be very appealing. Highly customizable and a 30 year non pro-rated warranty on their latex mattress only. This is amazing! First time I've seen this anywhere. Have you ever seen this before? Too good to be true?

Again, this is a great forum and information website that you have created....much appreciation! Thank you.

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General Questions 27 Dec 2016 14:07 #4

  • phoenix
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Hi Gman52,

The only other local (Rochester, NY) option that I know of for factory direct is Jamestown Mattress.

The better options or possibilities I'm aware of in and around the Rochester area (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here ) are listed in post #11 here .

Other than the online companies I mentioned before I find FlexComfort (Natural Comfort Latex Mattress Collection) to be very appealing. Highly customizable and a 30 year non pro-rated warranty on their latex mattress only. This is amazing! First time I've seen this anywhere. Have you ever seen this before? Too good to be true?

I think you are referring to FlexusComfort, who along with the other site members listed in post #21 here (I linked to this in my previous reply to you) compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency, and I certainly wouldn't hesitate to purchase a mattress from any them. Many of the site members offer similar latex component systems to the one you mentioned from FlexusComfort.

Again, this is a great forum and information website that you have created....much appreciation!

You are very welcome!

Phoenix
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Flexus Comfort experience 24 Jan 2017 15:31 #5

  • KWCOLLIER
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I just wanted to echo the positive comments about Flexus Comfort that I have read elsewhere on the forum.

After doing *way* too much reading and research on mattresses, (thank you to all who contributed wisdom and insight on this forum), I determined that a 100% natural latex mattress on top of a Legget and Platt adjustable base was our solution.

I have slept on latex foam pillows for most of my fifty years and have loved them, so it was not difficult to understand the performance of latex as a mattress. We were on a Stearns and Foster Silver Dream before this, and I am sad to say we were really disappointed with that mattress, which we paid a lot of money for about 8 years ago (a lot more than the cost of two latex 13" Twin XLs).

So after the "type of mattress" decision was made, all that was left to do was pick a merchant. I selected Flexus Comfort in Covina, CA, for my on-line purchase. Buying a mattress over the internet is tough in the best of circumstances, but buying from a place in California when you live in the Midwest is even more intimidating, But others on this site spoke highly of Flexus Comfort, which gave me confidence, and they seemed to have really reasonable prices (at least 10% lower than comparable prices elsewhere) and the right, high-quality components for us.

We bought a Split King (two Twin XLs) in the 13" Natural Latex (with different firmness formulas for each side) and two of the L&P SCape+ Twin XL bases. Flexus looks to be running a mattress special just about all the time, and they also give you a break on the cost of the adjustable bases with a mattress purchase. So overall, they had really competitive prices.

Every time I called them, Henry answered the phone or returned my message. He was great, and especially helpful with selecting the various layers for each of us. He asked a few questions to help him "prescribe" the combination of layers that would appeal to each of us. For most people, it boils down to your size (weight and height) and sleeping style (back, side, combo, belly, etc.) I think he hit upon the right firmness formula for both of us (time will tell). He does this every day, so I deferred to his judgment.

I ordered the beds and mattresses on 21DEC and received the mattresses a few days after the New Year (03JAN). The mattresses arrived in four large boxes, each weighing more than 60 pounds. Henry told me to expect the bases a few days after the mattresses, but unfortunately L&P was back-ordered for the holidays, so we just received those bases yesterday (23JAN). You may want to budget 3 – 4 weeks to receive the L&P bases.

Therefore we just spent our first night on the new bed last night. Both of us are really happy with the set up so far, and I think it was worth the wait (though one night is not enough time to evaluate a new mattress, I am sure.)

In summary - I was very impressed with Flexus Comfort as a company and Henry, as my point of contact, could not have been better. He was very professional and did everything he said he would do, and when I started calling for an update on the bases' ship date, his follow-up was superb. The L&G bases were drop-shipped from the manufacturer, so Henry really had little control over that part of the delivery,

When the bed bases finally arrived, I was pleasantly surprised to find the delivery was "white-glove". I was not expecting that, so it was nice to have them delivered, setup, tested, and all the trash hauled away. I also received an extra set of sheets after the second delay on the bases. Nice touch, Henry.

The free sheets are a basic creme color and feel very nice. The overall quality and construction of the mattress casement, zipper and foam was very high. I put each mattress into a water-resistant encasement and topped them off with a removable mattress cover.

I will say that their instructions were very thorough, though assembling two of these mattresses is quite a work-out, so plan accordingly (it would have been better to have a second person). If you follow their instructions it does get easier.

IMPORTANT - Just do not pull the foam, instead whip it like a rope to move it around, It takes practice to get it to move just the right amount. And be aware - latex mattresses are very heavy and difficult to move (a little floppier than the innerspring units), so it is best to assemble them in-place, right on the bed base where they will be used. I don't anticipate needing to turn or flip these mattresses, and if I do, it will probably just be one or two layers.

Another caution - I made the mistake of letting my 13-year old son try out the new mattress and movable, massaging bed last night, and now I fear I will be ordering one more Twin XL latex mattress and SCape+ base soon! So Henry - get ready!

Good luck with your purchase decision - I hope this review helps. Buying mattresses is not easy.

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Last edit: by KWCOLLIER. Reason: Misspelling in title

Flexus Comfort experience 24 Jan 2017 16:54 #6

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Hi KWCOLLIER,

Welcome to the Mattress Forum!

Congratulations on your new mattress! :cheer: As you’re aware, Flexus is a member here, and you certainly made a good quality choice of product.

I appreciate you taking the time to provide a detailed accounting of your process, and also the helpful tips. Usually a person’s first post is asking questions about researching a product instead of comments after the fact, so I’m looking forward to more updates from you after you’ve had a chance to sleep on your product for a while now that you’re finally set up on your adjustable bed bases!

Phoenix
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