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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 01 Apr 2016 17:37 #1

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Both my wife and I sleep in various positions, our current Simmons Beautyrest (from Macy's) got very soft after about 7 yrs (if I recall correctly) since it was replaced due to sagging (after 4-5 yrs)

With our combination of sleep positions, I thought medium firm (Sealy calls it Cushion Firm) with a softer top layer might accommodate both of us nicely, but after reading some threads where Phoenix said the poster was lucky to have 5 yrs with Euro Pillow Top, I think I might have to re-consider that.

The mattress I've been looking at was Sealy Posturpedic Plus Series at several retailers about $700 to $900 (can't tell what's the big difference between these)

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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 01 Apr 2016 18:11 #2

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Hi watchtime3,

Both my wife and I sleep in various positions, our current Simmons Beautyrest (from Macy's) got very soft after about 7 yrs (if I recall correctly) since it was replaced due to sagging (after 4-5 yrs)


This certainly isn't unusual with any of the major brand mattresses. The major brands such as Sealy/Stearns & Foster, Simmons, and Serta all tend to use lower quality materials in their mattresses than most of their smaller competitors that will tend to soften or break down prematurely relative to the price you pay which is why I would generally suggest avoiding all of them completely (and the major retailers that focus on them as well) along with any mattress where you aren't able to find out the type and quality/durability of the materials inside it (see the guidelines here along with post #3 here and post #12 here and post #404 here ).

With our combination of sleep positions, I thought medium firm (Sealy calls it Cushion Firm) with a softer top layer might accommodate both of us nicely, but after reading some threads where Phoenix said the poster was lucky to have 5 yrs with Euro Pillow Top, I think I might have to re-consider that.


The biggest issue with premature foam softening or breakdown isn't the design of the mattress but the quality and durability of the materials inside it.

Assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the quality/durability guidelines here relative to your weight range ... the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses are more of a preference and a budget choice than a "better/worse" choice (see this article ).

I would also keep in mind that there are no "standard" definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like "medium" for someone else or even "soft" for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they "rate" a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

While I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... It's not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

I'm not sure what you've read since you found the site but just in case you haven't read it yet ... the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

If you let me know your city or zip code I'd also be happy to let you know about any of the better options or possibilities I'm aware of in your area.

Phoenix
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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 03 Apr 2016 17:31 #3

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Thank you Phoenix,
My ZIP is 11101.

I'd love to get a chance to see those independent manufacturers and their products. I totally agree the mattress industries and their big S's dominate market by flooding the market with exact same mattress under different names (I don't see you mention this in other threads, but I haven't read everything yet) and with absolutely no way to compare one against the others because they even change the stitching design or edge colors, you can sort of guess the name for comparison by looking at the specs, but sadly not every retail list all specs. For someone who doesn't have time or the resources to read sites like this, he/she will end up getting robbed by manufacturer + retailer because seriously the only thing you can see is the price, you will never know if what you are buying for $1000 is really $300 more valuable & better quality than a $700 one down the streets with very similar specs. All those name games..

I look forward to hearing from you about those alternatives.
Thanks again.

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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 03 Apr 2016 18:49 #4

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Hi watchtime3,

I'd love to get a chance to see those independent manufacturers and their products. I totally agree the mattress industries and their big S's dominate market by flooding the market with exact same mattress under different names (I don't see you mention this in other threads, but I haven't read everything yet) and with absolutely no way to compare one against the others because they even change the stitching design or edge colors, you can sort of guess the name for comparison by looking at the specs, but sadly not every retail list all specs. For someone who doesn't have time or the resources to read sites like this, he/she will end up getting robbed by manufacturer + retailer because seriously the only thing you can see is the price, you will never know if what you are buying for $1000 is really $300 more valuable & better quality than a $700 one down the streets with very similar specs. All those name games..


You can avoid all the "name games" and all the other "marketing tricks" that you will find in the mainstream industry if you follow all the steps in the tutorial and in any case I would avoid the major brands (along with any mattress where you aren't able to find out what you need to know to make an informed choice ... see this article ) because even if you are somehow able to find out the specs you need to know about the quality and durability of the materials (which is unlikely) you will generally only confirm that they are lower quality and less durable materials than I would consider anyway.

My ZIP is 11101


The better options or possibilities I'm aware of in and around the New York City region (subject to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines I linked in my last reply) are listed in post #2 here .

Phoenix
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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 05 Apr 2016 12:49 #5

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Thanks Phoenix,
It seems like there is a lot of foam manufacturers, it is pretty popular but I still prefer the old spring mattresses. Also, the similarity between foam manufacturer makes me think if they all come from the same original manufacturer but with a few final touches to differentiate one from another. For example Casper, company whose advertisement I see on subway all the time and, and Helix.

I noticed there are spring type mattresses to among those, and I am surprised they have different type of structure, for example micro coils. It's interesting. I'll check the closest showrooms and give them a try. I just don't want the convenience of chains and their pricing (most of the independent ones I saw on that list were $1500-$2000 and over for Queen mattresses)

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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 05 Apr 2016 13:19 #6

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Hi watchtime,

It seems like there is a lot of foam manufacturers, it is pretty popular but I still prefer the old spring mattresses.


As I mentioned in my earlier reply ... as long as a mattress uses good quality and durable materials and there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress then the type of mattress would be a preference choice rather than a "better/worse" choice. There are many people that prefer an innerspring mattress with various types of materials in the comfort layers above the springs.

Also, the similarity between foam manufacturer makes me think if they all come from the same original manufacturer but with a few final touches to differentiate one from another. For example Casper, company whose advertisement I see on subway all the time and, and Helix.


Mattress manufacturers don't manufacture their own foams and there are many foam manufacturers that supply the foams that mattress manufacturers use in their mattresses. You can see a list of the CertiPUR certified memory foam and polyfoam manufacturers CertiPUR page here for example and there are also many manufacturers that make different types and blends of latex that are used by different mattress manufacturers as well.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: certipur.us/find-a-foam-supplier/

Some of the "simplified choice mattresses" (see posts #1 and #2 here ) such as Casper and Helix are what are often called "cut and sew" mattresses that don't have their own factory and are made by a foam fabricator or by another larger manufacturer to their specific design specifications. Some foam fabricators make mattresses for several "cut and sew" mattress suppliers. Others actually own their own factory and make the mattresses themselves and order their materials and components directly from the foam or component manufacturers. There are also many other variations in the supply chain that leads to the final mattress that is purchased by a consumer.

I noticed there are spring type mattresses to among those, and I am surprised they have different type of structure, for example micro coils. It's interesting. I'll check the closest showrooms and give them a try. I just don't want the convenience of chains and their pricing (most of the independent ones I saw on that list were $1500-$2000 and over for Queen mattresses)


There are hundreds if not thousands of different innerspring mattresses that use different types of innersprings and different types of comfort layers above the innersprings (such as memory foam, polyfoam, latex foam, natural or synthetic fibers, buckling column gel, or combinations of several of these) that can each have a different "feel" and firmness level and I would keep in mind that the specific design of a mattress is the single biggest factor in whether a mattress is a good "match" for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP. Some mattresses that use certain materials and components may be a great match for you while other mattresses that have a different design may be completely unsuitable for you to sleep on even if they use the same or similar materials and components.

In other words ... if you test a local mattress that has a microcoil comfort layer on top of an innerspring support core (probably with some other foam layers in the mattress) for example then it doesn't mean that other mattresses that use the same materials but have a different design (different types of springs or microcoils, different types or firmness levels of foam, different layer thicknesses, and many other design variables) will also be a suitable choice for you.

Phoenix
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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 06 Apr 2016 20:17 #7

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Thanks Phoenix,
I'll stay with innerspring for the time being, and I like Keetsa, I might go check them out this weekend. I'll skim through others too but I am not planning to pay $2k for now.
For mail order only companies, I don't understand how people shop for mattress without actually sitting or laying on them. Yes, having a guarantee is nice, but still, it's a hassle for everyone to send it back.

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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 06 Apr 2016 20:56 #8

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Hi watchtime3,

I'll stay with innerspring for the time being, and I like Keetsa, I might go check them out this weekend.


If you are considering Keetsa I would be cautious and make sure that you can find out the density of any memory foam or polyfoam in their mattresses because some of them use lower quality and less durable materials that would be a weak link in their mattresses.

They are also a Zinus brand that is made in China and some of the comments in post #6 here about mattresses that are made in China may also be worthwhile reading and post #2 here and post #2 here has some additional information about Keetsa that would be worth reading as well.

Phoenix
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Is Firm/Cushion Firm with Euro Pillowtop a bad decision? 07 Apr 2016 14:13 #9

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Will read those for sure, I am amazed how you remember or find these posts and can quote them like this, you are amazing.
Thanks for your help.

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