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Flexus help deciding 05 Aug 2015 13:14 #1

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Hi, I've read everything about selection (I think -- I kept following links as I was reading!) but am hoping for a little handholding for the next step.

We went to Flexus and liked it a lot. I liked that there weren't a million choices. My husband and I are both wanting a premade bed -- so no swappable layers. Partly that's based on price, but partly on seeing the frustrations that some people go through trying to find the right combination. We also just like springs, I think because we are so used to them.

We liked the the Body Print (in medium firmness) and the Posture Sense (firm) -- specs below. My husband liked the Body Print, which is quite a bit cheaper, more than he liked the Posture Sense. And I liked the more expensive Posture Sense. We both liked the other mattress too -- but really preferred our first choice -- they weren't the same for us. Our mattress trajectory -- we had a Stearns and Foster that went bad quicker than we were happy with and we did mattress surgery on it, with tips from the old forum. Then an inexpensive Costco memory foam -- it became way too uncomfortable and we sent it back. Now we are on a Costco Sealy -- also bad and we are sending it back. I knew we were taking a big risk on both -- especially the Sealy as I'd read about the quality of materials. It just seemed like a risk worth taking since we knew that we could return it. So we are looking for something that is better quality and will be our last purchase for a while. If we go with Flexus, there is no return available if we choose poorly. Hence the need for hand holding!

Phoenix, I read the article you posted about people choosing mattresses for themselves. If I recall the details correctly, people's choices for the correct mattress (based on sleep time and sleep quality) for themselves was no better than random chance assignment of the mattresses! Yikes!! So... how can I trust that I am making the right choice?! My back is kind of out of whack right now and that contributes to my concern that I can pick well. I feel like a need a few decent nights of sleep on a quality bed, before I can make a reasonable choice on what actually feels good. Obviously, that's not an option. Plus I feel like for the most part, everything feels pretty nice at the very beginning -- that you need a good week at least to evaluate a mattress (with the exception of way too hard or soft). So, how the heck can I possibly evaluate a mattress and be relatively confident that I am choosing well? Obviously, we are looking at materials and want to choose good quality stuff this time around. But our budget is more limited. We would really like to get the cheapest option that will make us both feel good.

We also liked the Revive 200 from Custom Comfort -- but the price for that is comparable to the price of the Body print from Flexus, and I think the materials are probably better in the Body print.

We'd appreciate any thoughts you'd care to share with us. Thanks!!

Specs for all -- we have emailed all the companies to ask for more specific info like ILDs:
Flexus Posture Sense - Double Regular Top
10" Double Sided Flipable Mattress
Body Print® Tri-Zone Pocket Coil Technology
1.5 lb Certi-Pure Soy Based Foam Encased Edge Support for Added Stability
Center third lumbar support
1.5 lb Certi-Pure Soy Based Foam cushioning material

Flexus Body Print Double Sided Pocket Coil Mattress
13" Double Sided Flipable Mattress
Body Print® Tri-Zone Pocket Coil Technology
Body Print Mattress is offered in Firm and Medium comfort levels
1.5 lb Certi-PUR Soy Based Foam Encased Edge Support for Added Stability
Center third lumbar support
1.5 lb Certi-PUR Soy Based Foam cushioning material on both sides
2" Talalay Latex comfort layer on both sides
1" Organic Cotton and Natural Wool Quilted cover.

Revive 200 expertly combines compressed cotton with a thicker layer of conforming soy-based foam. This cushion comfort layer is built atop a medium-firm coil core and finished with a plush quilted top. For those who seek more balanced support and comfort, this is a wonderful choice.
Custom Comfort Revive 200
Medium-firm springs
Steel edge support
Steel grid
Insulator pad
Natural cotton padding
Foam comfort layer
Quilted plush top
Double-sided

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Flexus help deciding 05 Aug 2015 17:10 #2

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Hi stacytr,

We liked the the Body Print (in medium firmness) and the Posture Sense (firm) -- specs below. My husband liked the Body Print, which is quite a bit cheaper, more than he liked the Posture Sense. And I liked the more expensive Posture Sense. We both liked the other mattress too -- but really preferred our first choice -- they weren't the same for us.


I think you may be mixing up the Body Print with the Posture Sense mattress. The Body Print mattresses are the ones that have the 2" of latex on each side and are in a higher budget range than the Posture Sense which only use polyfoam in the comfort layers.

Our mattress trajectory -- we had a Stearns and Foster that went bad quicker than we were happy with and we did mattress surgery on it, with tips from the old forum. Then an inexpensive Costco memory foam -- it became way too uncomfortable and we sent it back. Now we are on a Costco Sealy -- also bad and we are sending it back. I knew we were taking a big risk on both -- especially the Sealy as I'd read about the quality of materials. It just seemed like a risk worth taking since we knew that we could return it. So we are looking for something that is better quality and will be our last purchase for a while.


Unfortunately (as you probably know) your experience with major brand mattresses are very common because they all tend to use lower quality and less durable materials in the comfort layers which generally soften or break down much too quickly relative to the price you pay and compared to many other smaller manufacturers (such as Flexus) that use higher quality and more durable materials and designs.

I didn't have a previous forum but there was a time (almost 5 years ago now) where I was a very frequent poster at a different forum until my account was "deactivated" for various "political" reasons and that was one of the catalysts that led to the launching of this site. Just for reference (for the sake of others that may read your comment here) ... there are also some suggestions that may be helpful for those that are considering "mattress surgery" in post #2 here and the other posts it links to.

If we go with Flexus, there is no return available if we choose poorly. Hence the need for hand holding!


There is also more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between the mattresses they carry in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists (based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you).

Unfortunately it's not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for someone else either for a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or a combination of materials or type of mattress because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress. There are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for either or both of you in terms of "comfort" or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

There is also more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" and PPP in post #2 here that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for.

Phoenix, I read the article you posted about people choosing mattresses for themselves. If I recall the details correctly, people's choices for the correct mattress (based on sleep time and sleep quality) for themselves was no better than random chance assignment of the mattresses! Yikes!! So... how can I trust that I am making the right choice?!


I think you may have misread the article. For those that don't test a mattress carefully (such as only spending a minute or two on a mattress or only testing for the more subjective comfort or "showroom feel" of a mattress or even worse just pushing down on the mattress with their hands) their odds of success are probably less than random chance alone but for those that test a mattress more carefully and objectively (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) then for most people the odds of success are very high ... especially with the help and guidance of a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer.

While careful testing with a local purchase can have very high odds of success ... for those that are making an online choice that they can't test before a purchase, have a history of choosing mattresses that are unsuitable for them even if they have tested them, have body types or health considerations that are more challenging and make choosing the most suitable mattress more difficult, or that for whatever reason are more uncertain about whether their choice is "right" for them ... then the options you have available after a purchase to fine tune the comfort or support of the mattress or to exchange or return the mattress or individual layers can become a much more important part of each person's personal value equation. Of course the other side of this is that exchange or return options are built in to the cost of a mattress so they can add to the cost of a mattress and the majority of people who don't return or exchange a mattress or a layer are the ones who pay for the minority of people who do.

We'd appreciate any thoughts you'd care to share with us. Thanks!!

Specs for all -- we have emailed all the companies to ask for more specific info like ILDs:


I personally wouldn't take the time to find out the ILD's because with a local purchase ILD information for the various layers is mostly meaningless and will generally only add to confusion. With a local purchase choosing a mattress in terms of PPP based on what your body tells you with careful testing is much more reliable that choosing a mattress based on complex combinations of specs that can take many years of experience to understand how they all interact together.

While for some people that have a great deal of experience in the industry or who design mattresses knowing the ILD information of the layers in a mattress can be helpful or even essential, the ILD of a material is only one of many variables that determines how soft or firm the materials or a mattress that uses it will feel ( see here ) and ILD numbers are not comparable between different materials or in many cases between different versions of the same material anyway.

For most people specs are overwhelming and for those that do know a little bit about foam specs they can often tend to make choices based on specs alone or believe that they know more than they really do (for example making choices based on foam density or ILD alone when these are just two of many variables that can affect the feel and performance of a mattress). Too much information and too little information can both result in poor choices. In many cases mattress manufacturers don't provide the ILD of their various foam layers because they are well aware of the risk of providing too much information to a customer and understand that for most people it would be more misleading than helpful. While knowing the quality specs of a mattress that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress is an important part of making an informed choice ... knowing the "comfort specs" of a local mattress isn't nearly as important as listening to what your body tells you with careful and objective testing.

Specs for all -- we have emailed all the companies to ask for more specific info like ILDs:
Flexus Posture Sense - Double Regular Top
10" Double Sided Flipable Mattress
Body Print® Tri-Zone Pocket Coil Technology
1.5 lb Certi-Pure Soy Based Foam Encased Edge Support for Added Stability
Center third lumbar support
1.5 lb Certi-Pure Soy Based Foam cushioning material

Flexus Body Print Double Sided Pocket Coil Mattress
13" Double Sided Flipable Mattress
Body Print® Tri-Zone Pocket Coil Technology
Body Print Mattress is offered in Firm and Medium comfort levels
1.5 lb Certi-PUR Soy Based Foam Encased Edge Support for Added Stability
Center third lumbar support
1.5 lb Certi-PUR Soy Based Foam cushioning material on both sides
2" Talalay Latex comfort layer on both sides
1" Organic Cotton and Natural Wool Quilted cover.


While I can't speak to the comfort of a mattress for someone else or how well it will match your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP ... I can certainly confirm that both of these mattresses meet the foam quality/durability guidelines here so neither of them have any weak links in their design that would affect their durability or the useful life of the mattress.

Revive 200 expertly combines compressed cotton with a thicker layer of conforming soy-based foam. This cushion comfort layer is built atop a medium-firm coil core and finished with a plush quilted top. For those who seek more balanced support and comfort, this is a wonderful choice.
Custom Comfort Revive 200
Medium-firm springs
Steel edge support
Steel grid
Insulator pad
Natural cotton padding
Foam comfort layer
Quilted plush top
Double-sided


This description is missing the foam density information so unfortunately it's not possible for me to make any meaningful comments about the quality or durability of the materials or the mattress as a whole. If you can find out the information in this article and post it on the forum I'd certainly be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials or let you know if I can see any obvious weak links that would affect the durability or the useful life of the mattress or would be a cause for concern although it would surprise me if there was since Custom Comfort tends to use good quality materials in their mattresses.

Once you reach step 5 in the tutorial and you are down to finalists that you are confident are all choices between "good and good" in terms of comfort and PPP, and none of them have any lower quality materials or "weak links" in their design, and if there are still no clear winners between them (which is usually a good indication that you have done some very good testing and research) then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing or mattresses you have slept well on, your more detailed conversations with each of them, your confidence about PPP and the suitability of each one, their prices, your preferences, the options you have after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or exchange or return the mattress or individual layers, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on "informed best judgement" based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
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Flexus help deciding 05 Aug 2015 18:57 #3

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Quick reply for now -- but just wanted to say I appreciated your very thorough response! I will be reading through everything more carefully tonight.

It sounds like I really did misread that article about choosing a mattress -- that makes me feel a bit better! It was really late when I read it so apparently that affect my comprehension. :)

We did go back to Flexus today -- you are correct -- I did indeed reverse the mattresses! I still like the pricier one better and my husband likes the cheaper one better. The posture sense doesn't feel like it has quite enough give to me. My husband and I are both side sleepers and sometimes back sleepers. I'm considering how it might help to get a thick memory foam topper to make the cheaper one feel cushier to me. We'd still come out way ahead!

I absolutely know that you can't make specific recommendations -- though I sure wish you could -- it would be a quite lucrative business! ;)

One additional question -- the flexus mattresses only come with foundations -- they do not make box springs anymore. Can you speak to how this might affect the feel of the bed? I can also do a search for that later tonight.

And I hope I wasn't implying that the previous mattress forum was yours -- though I certainly appreciated your voice there -- you and Sandman both were very very helpful (and I'm remembering a woman who contributed quite a bit while I was active there too -- and someone named Budgy?).

Thanks again.

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Flexus help deciding 05 Aug 2015 20:33 #4

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Hi stacytr,

I absolutely know that you can't make specific recommendations -- though I sure wish you could -- it would be a quite lucrative business! ;)


I wish I could as well. I can think of quite a few things that I could be doing if I had a functional crystal ball. One day perhaps :)

We did go back to Flexus today -- you are correct -- I did indeed reverse the mattresses! I still like the pricier one better and my husband likes the cheaper one better. The posture sense doesn't feel like it has quite enough give to me. My husband and I are both side sleepers and sometimes back sleepers. I'm considering how it might help to get a thick memory foam topper to make the cheaper one feel cushier to me. We'd still come out way ahead!


I can't help but suspect that he may also come to prefer the two sided Body Print over time and it would also have the advantage of having a wool quilted cotton cover which is also more costly but which would make a difference with temperature regulation as well but of course this is only "theory" or "speculation" (without a crystal ball) and he would be the best judge of which mattress was more comfortable and the best "match" for him in terms of PPP. I just hope that it really is a "comfort" choice rather than a budget choice because while the difference in budget can seem more significant when you make the purchase ... if you are in a position that you can comfortably afford either one then when you look back on a mattress purchase in a decade or more you will remember much more about how well you slept over that time than you will about a difference in price that works out to less than $10 a month over the 10 years ... and IMO how well you sleep on a mattress can have a bigger effect on how you feel and your overall well being than almost any other purchase you can make.

Of course a topper that works well for both of you could also be a good option if the mattress by itself is too firm. While choosing a specific topper that is a good match for you in combination with a specific mattress can sometimes be challenging (similar to switching layer combinations if the first or second combination don't work out well) ... it also has the advantage of being able to replace just the topper if it softens or breaks down before the top layers in the mattress (which would be likely) or if your needs and preferences change over time without having to replace the entire mattress and it can also extend the life of the mattress layers underneath it.

One additional question -- the flexus mattresses only come with foundations -- they do not make box springs anymore. Can you speak to how this might affect the feel of the bed? I can also do a search for that later tonight.


While it would depend on the specifics of the mattress and the box spring and how they interacted together to some degree ... a box spring would provide more flex underneath the mattress so it would be a more "active" layer in your sleeping system and would generally result in a mattress that has a softer feel or in some cases a more "bottomless" feel. It could also create more motion transfer or create some "sway" in the mattress because of the flex of the springs in the box spring. They can also help protect the softer layers that are on the bottom of a two sided mattress by taking up some of the compression forces. They aren't really necessary for a pocket coil mattress though which would already have a range of motion and point elasticity (contouring) that would be "enough" without a box spring.

While there are many differing opinions in the industry about the effect of a box spring on comfort and durability and the other pros and cons of using a box spring vs a foundation under a two sided mattress (I wouldn't tend to use them under a one sided mattress) ... I believe that they would generally be more beneficial both in terms of "feel" and in terms of greater durability under a two sided linked coil mattress (bonnell, offset coil etc) which have less point elasticity and can benefit more from the shock absorbing effect of a box spring than a pocket coil mattress but there are many people that prefer a foundation because of the greater sway and motion transfer that some mattress/box spring combinations can have. If you test a mattress on a specific type of support system and it's a good match for you in terms of PPP then I would use the same type of support system as the one you tested the mattress with when you purchase it.

And I hope I wasn't implying that the previous mattress forum was yours -- though I certainly appreciated your voice there -- you and Sandman both were very very helpful (and I'm remembering a woman who contributed quite a bit while I was active there too -- and someone named Budgy?).


When you mentioned "tips from the old forum" I thought that you thought that it was a precursor to this one but I do have some good memories of my time there before my username was suddenly "disabled".

Sandman was certainly one of the more knowledgeable and helpful members there and of course Budgy is one of the more knowledgeable people in the industry, He is also a member here although he is now posting under a different username. You can see some comments I made about What's The Best Mattress just before I officially launched this site in the blog post here titled "A few reflections on the last few weeks".
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I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding.

Phoenix
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Flexus help deciding 06 Oct 2015 00:23 #5

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Well we still haven't bought a mattress yet. We wanted to wait till I was working more regularly so we'd have a little extra since I don't work over the summer. We went back to Flexus on Saturday and this time I didn't love the Body Print as much -- but I feel pretty sure it had to do with the fact that my back was really bothering me. I'm not sure if anything would have felt great that day. I've laid on the same mattress twice before and really liked it in the medium firmness. My husband liked it too this time. But now I'm feeling cold feet and wondering if you have any other words of wisdom. We didn't try an all latex mattress because of price -- the body print is really at the top of what we want to spend. Other than the Custom Comfort bed, we haven't searched out anything else. Should we expand out our search? Or do I just go with what I have liked before?

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Flexus help deciding 06 Oct 2015 11:18 #6

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Hi stacytr,

We went back to Flexus on Saturday and this time I didn't love the Body Print as much -- but I feel pretty sure it had to do with the fact that my back was really bothering me. I'm not sure if anything would have felt great that day. I've laid on the same mattress twice before and really liked it in the medium firmness. My husband liked it too this time. But now I'm feeling cold feet and wondering if you have any other words of wisdom. We didn't try an all latex mattress because of price -- the body print is really at the top of what we want to spend. Other than the Custom Comfort bed, we haven't searched out anything else. Should we expand out our search? Or do I just go with what I have liked before?


I can't tell you what you "should do" because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don't involve what you will "feel" on a mattress, and help with "how" to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress, manufacturer, or combination of materials is "best for you" regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or whether anyone else has the same criteria or circumstances or would make the same choice.

Having said that ... I would probably give things a few days for your back to get a little better and then test the mattress again to see how you feel about it.

Phoenix
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Flexus help deciding 06 Oct 2015 11:41 #7

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Thank you, Phoenix. I absolutely know you can't say anything about a particular mattress for a particular person -- other than general comments about quality of materials. I still keep hoping for that crystal ball!!

I've looked at the list of local places -- but we've only actually tried mattresses at Custom Comfort and Flexus. Given our price point, max is around $1800 for a King set, and the fact that we want an innerspring as we don't want to be fiddling with layers -- are there any other places that you think we might want to check out in person? I did look at the websites for other local vendors but I'm sure I could have overlooked another high quality company that could compare well with Flexus.

Thanks again for your time!

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Flexus help deciding 07 Oct 2015 10:40 #8

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Hi stacytr,

Given our price point, max is around $1800 for a King set, and the fact that we want an innerspring as we don't want to be fiddling with layers -- are there any other places that you think we might want to check out in person? I did look at the websites for other local vendors but I'm sure I could have overlooked another high quality company that could compare well with Flexus.


I don't keep a record of the individual mattresses that the retailers and manufacturers in the hundreds of forum lists throughout the forum carry on their floor (it would be a bigger job than anyone could keep up with in a constantly changing market) but checking their websites and making some preliminary phone calls to the retailers/manufacturers that are on the list that are in reasonable driving distance is always a good idea before you visit any store anyway. This will tell you which of them carry mattresses that would meet your specific criteria, are transparent about the quality and durability of the materials in their mattresses (see this article ), and that carry the type of mattresses that you are interested in testing in the budget range you are comfortable with. Once you have checked their websites and/or talked with the ones that interest you then you will be in a much better position to decide on the ones that you are most interested in visiting based on the results of your preliminary research and conversations.

Phoenix
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Flexus help deciding 07 Oct 2015 17:10 #9

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Thank you again, Phoenix. And forgive me for thinking of you as a human computer with all of the info just filed away in your brain! :o It is absolutely not fair to you (and I bet people do it a lot)! Seriously -- I'm sorry. I had actually already gone to every website that I found in a thread about local vendors in California -- especially looking at ones that were also members here. I just got overwhelmed by all of the sites! Honestly, for what we are looking for, Flexus really did seem to have the best bang for the buck so to speak. (based on materials and price for a king). The only other possibility was Nest, but Jim really didn't want just a foam bed, and with springs and higher quality foam, they started to get pretty comparable (or more expensive). Jim wants to just order the Flexus -- so I think that's what we are going to do!
I promise to come back and post what I think of it when it gets here next week!

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Flexus help deciding 07 Oct 2015 18:21 #10

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Hi stacytr,

I had actually already gone to every website that I found in a thread about local vendors in California -- especially looking at ones that were also members here. I just got overwhelmed by all of the sites! Honestly, for what we are looking for, Flexus really did seem to have the best bang for the buck so to speak. (based on materials and price for a king). The only other possibility was Nest, but Jim really didn't want just a foam bed, and with springs and higher quality foam, they started to get pretty comparable (or more expensive). Jim wants to just order the Flexus -- so I think that's what we are going to do!


If you wanted to expand your options I would talk on the phone to the retailers/manufacturers on the list that are in reasonable driving distance and tell them your budget range and the types of mattresses that you are interested in testing (two sided pocket coils, latex/pocket coil hybrids etc) rather than trying to find all the information that you need just from their websites. You will get much more detailed, specific, and reliable information about what each of them have available on their showroom floor and their level of knowledge and service and your research will go much faster if you focus more on phone calls and personal conversations than on reading websites with your initial research about who to visit.

Having said that ... Flexus is certainly a great quality/value choice if you don't wish to take the time to make additional comparisons!

Assuming that you decide to purchase from Flexus ... congratulations on your new mattress :)

I'm looking forward to your comments and feedback once you've received it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix
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