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European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 22 Apr 2015 11:22 #1

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It has been a year since I posted here and bought our first latex mattress, and I welcome myself back. :-) The vast information in this forum is unparalleled and now that I find myself searching for a mattress for my 2-year old, I decided to visit again.

By the way, last year, we bought the Latex HDM from European Sleep Works, and have not once regretted that purchase. We love that mattress! So when we thought of buying a mattress for my son from Costco, we stopped, and decided to search for a better one.

We are contemplating on buying either one of these.

European Sleep Works' Children's Mattress:
sleepworks.com/mattresses/childrens

Or

the 7" Natural Latex Mattress ("B" Stock) from Spindle Mattress

We're looking at ESW because we have their Latex HDM and we are very happy with it. But we do not know the construction of their Children's mattress. Very little information is provided on their website., except these:

Children's Mattress: Features 1" of natural latex, premium European pocketed coils, and a quilted, zippered, cotton and wool cover. Ideal for kids of all ages.

Features:
Economical Price
Fire retardant is natural Merino wool
Upholstered in breathable cotton and wool
Oeko-Tex certified
Suitable for platform bedframes


We're looking at the Spindle because Spindle seems to have a good reputation here. But we don't know what B stock means. And on the product page, it says, "Type: unknown". What does B stock mean and what does Type: unknown mean? This is on sale, that's why we're considering this.

As always, your insights and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 22 Apr 2015 12:46 #2

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Hi moosemom,

Post #2 here and the topics it links to have more information about mattresses and children and "safe" materials including a link to some general guidelines for children in post #2 here . It also includes a number of links to the better forum posts and topics about mattress and children as well which have more information about many good mattress choices for children.

Both of the mattresses you are considering would certainly make good quality/value and suitable choices for a child and there are no lower quality materials or "weak links" in either of them.

We're looking at the Spindle because Spindle seems to have a good reputation here. But we don't know what B stock means. And on the product page, it says, "Type: unknown". What does B stock mean and what does Type: unknown mean? This is on sale, that's why we're considering this.


You can see a description of their "B Stock" mattresses on their page here . They are new mattresses that have cosmetic defects and are sold at a steep discount because they don't have any warranty or comfort exchange options and all sales are final.

Phoenix
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European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 22 Apr 2015 13:16 #3

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Phoenix, thank you for your response. I called Spindle to inquire more. My hesitation is that when I asked if I can select firmness (I wanted firm, per your posts here) he said he cannot guarantee firmness --- "they'll put whatever they have". So I'm not quite sure what that meant. (I emailed them to follow up and now waiting for a reply.). I also don't know what natural latex means --- dunlop? talalay? a combination? or something else? He said they discontinued the 7", that's why they're getting rid of their stock.

Can I still trust that this is a good value? Thanks for your input.

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European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 22 Apr 2015 14:05 #4

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Hi moosemom,

Phoenix, thank you for your response. I called Spindle to inquire more. My hesitation is that when I asked if I can select firmness (I wanted firm, per your posts here) he said he cannot guarantee firmness --- "they'll put whatever they have".


A "medium" firmness is usually suitable for a child but with latex the risk of a layer that is too soft is less because latex is a very supportive material even in softer versions so if a child isn't unusually heavy then even a "relatively" softer top layer can still be a suitable choice.

I don't know what you would be most likely to receive in terms of the firmness of the layers (I haven't asked them) but if they can tell you that it wouldn't be in the very softest range then the risk of choosing a mattress that is too soft for a child would certainly be lower and while you would need to ask them ... I don't believe that they were using the softest versions of latex anyway.

I also don't know what natural latex means --- dunlop? talalay? a combination? or something else? He said they discontinued the 7", that's why they're getting rid of their stock.


There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here but outside of any special orders they may have available the latex they normally use in their mattresses is 100% natural continuous pour Dunlop latex made by Mountaintop foam which is a very high quality and durable material.

Can I still trust that this is a good value? Thanks for your input.


I think very highly of Neal and Spindle mattress and you can certainly "trust" that they will provide you with accurate and reliable information about anything that you purchase from them but the "value" of a mattress purchase isn't a matter of "trust" because it always depends on how a mattress compares to the other options you are considering based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

The chances of receiving a defective layer is very low (they say that it's less than 2%) and any potential defect would have less effect with a child anyway because of their lighter weight. The ability to exchange layers would generally be less important for a child as well because they don't know what type of mattress is best for them anyway. If both of these aren't unusually important to you then the price is great and for most people it would certainly be well worth seriously considering for a child's mattress in terms of both quality and value but only you can decide on the level of any additional "risk" that you are comfortable with and whether the tradeoff between any extra risk and the lower price is "worth it" to you.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 23 Apr 2015 09:23 #5

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I received the response below from Spindle Mattress. He later corrected himself and said they only use medium foam, not medium firm. Considering your recommendations for a mattress for children with an ILD of 28-32, and your insights on how the risk is lower with latex mattresses, unless it was the softest kind --- I am torn as to whether or not I should proceed with my order.

"The case on our 7" mattress is the same as on the Abscond, just tailored for 2 pieces of latex, not 3. The ILD of the foam we use is typically
Medium Firm Latex Foam -- 21.5-24.5 [@25% compression]
Firm Latex Foam -- 29.5-32.5 [@25% compression]

The ILD rating is not always a great guide and it becomes more complex when two layers are put together. We don't have metrics for that kind of configuration. Also, different types & manufacture of latex can have the same ILD but will have different firmness feels based on the density of the foam.

We cannot guarantee the ILD of the latex that's being put into your particular mattress. Again, we are aiming for a medium/firm feel, leaning more towards firm than towards soft [kind of like a hamburger? rare, medium rare, medium, medium well, well done]. Chances are that what we send will be spot on for your 2-year-old. But that's something you'll need to decide."

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European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 23 Apr 2015 09:48 #6

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Hi moosemom,

The firmness levels certainly sound like they are "in the range" that would be suitable.

Not surprisingly because he is so knowledgeable ... Neal is correct that ILD ratings are much more complex and can be more misleading than most people realize when you are comparing different types and blends of latex. The Mountaintop ILD numbers aren't comparable to most other types of latex and their 25% ILD firmness ratings test lower than the 25% ILD ratings of most other Talalay or Dunlop manufacturers.

The "ratings" that you need and are the most important would be the medium and medium firm "word" ratings which would both be very suitable choices for a child.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 23 Apr 2015 11:11 #7

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Unfortunately, I did not have the pleasure of speaking or corresponding with Neal directly. I was speaking with Kim Novick, Director of Marketing. He has corrected himself again and said he provided conflicting information. He provided this new information:

Medium Latex -- ILD @ 25% = 17.5-20.5
Firm Latex -- ILD @ 25% = 29.5-32.5

Anyway, he suggested, that a mattress with one layer of medium and one firm should provide me flexibility, in case I find that the mattress is either too soft or too firm. He said I can re-configure the layer with the medium at the bottom and the firm on the top.. I'm not sure though how that would affect the durability of the mattress, with the medium layer at the bottom. And, I am still uncertain whether or not they can guarantee that I get a mattress with one medium and one firm, considering that he earlier said that they cannot guarantee the firmness, and will put whatever they have on stock.
Regardless, since medium would still be appropriate for my two-year old... I will proceed with my purchase, as this still sounds like a great value for me.
Thank you, Phoenix for all the time you spend answering our queries. You are awesome and a great asset to the mattress industry as well as to consumers like me.

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European Sleep Works Children's Mattress v Spindle B Stock 23 Apr 2015 13:50 #8

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Hi moosemom,

Medium Latex -- ILD @ 25% = 17.5-20.5
Firm Latex -- ILD @ 25% = 29.5-32.5


The ILD numbers for the Mountaintop foam aren't really relevant because they don't compare well to the ILD's of other manufacturers and their medium and firm ILD range is different from most other latex manufacturers. In other words I wouldn't pay any attention to the ILD numbers of their layers.

Anyway, he suggested, that a mattress with one layer of medium and one firm should provide me flexibility, in case I find that the mattress is either too soft or too firm. He said I can re-configure the layer with the medium at the bottom and the firm on the top.. I'm not sure though how that would affect the durability of the mattress, with the medium layer at the bottom. And, I am still uncertain whether or not they can guarantee that I get a mattress with one medium and one firm, considering that he earlier said that they cannot guarantee the firmness, and will put whatever they have on stock.


A medium and a firm layer or two medium layers would all be "in the range" that would be a suitable firmness and rearranging layers won't have any meaningful effect on the durability of the mattress.

Their website is very clear that they can't guarantee the specific firmness of their layers but at least you know that there won't be any soft layers in the mattress which is the firmness that I would want to avoid.

I also agree that if it fits the criteria that are most important to you then it would certainly be a great quality/value choice.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.
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