TOPIC:

Thank you Phoenix as I can talk with willy G

thanks tom

Willy G, I have sent you a private message so please look in your message box if you need or want to talk with me privately about the mattress?

thanks Redwinger

Hi Phoenix, as you know I have purchased the Grand Palis by Christeli Mattress company. Along with that the Rize #5 adjustable bed. I have tried two configurations so far. In your opinion am I trying these without enough time between adjustments for the back to allow the new layers? Example, set up bed exactly like the picture on the sales for the mattress. Slept for almost two and half weeks and found myself sinking into a hole, yet comfortable, but at times I had to physical get up and move over to allow the foam to bounce back. I then set up the primary 8" Latex on the bottom, the 4.5 lbs, then then 8 lb on top of that and have almost two weeks on that. Much better as far as the "hole" goes. This would help Willy G questioning also? Am I setting this up the right way? I am trying to reach the Company to decide if I am going to keep it as the 30 days is fast approaching. But I believe that I have a good mattress combo with alternate ways to set it up so I am hoping that I can figure this out before I have to send it back. So with all this my main concern is pain upon waking. Yes I am under pain management with Dr's and have a serious disk bulge issues. With that in mind is my back to making adjustments to the bed and I have to allow these changes to take place for the long haul and you have posted in #47 or do I have the wrong set up. Should I try or will it work to have the 8" then the 8 lb for the last two layers with the 4.5 lb on the very bottom? All seem confusing to me on how to "set" up the configurations. Before I return it without haste, do I have a GREAT product and just need to find the right configurations or is the a problem with the my back and will have to find the best way to sleep with it no matter which mattress company I purchase from. Yes, I know you cannot see my back or don't have the time to hear it all, but if I am close to the best I can get and with the options with the Grand Palis then it would come down to getting it as close as I can. Sounds like I am asking if I have purchased the best mattress out there question, huh? I think that it would be that I have options with this mattress where others i would not that is one of the reasons (along with you GREAT input) to purchase it to begin with. Any insight would be great if you can provide as I have 5 days left to return. Then I would have to start over in more detail with your help.
As always Phoenix, THANK you for your time
Redwinger

Hi redwinger,

The first thing I would suggest is a more detailed conversation with Christeli because they would have much more specific knowledge of the properties of the different foams they use and the effect of the different configurations on an a"average" customer. For example I don't know the temperature sensitivity or relative softness of their different density memory foams or the relative softness of each configuration in terms of "pressure relief" softness or "support" softness (see post #15 here ) and when you are trying to fine tune or customize a mattress it's important to identify the underlying cause of any symptoms you are having in terms of primary support, secondary support, or pressure relief (see post #4 here ) and more specific details of the symptoms you are experiencing. This way it's more likely to identify which types of changes have the highest odds of success in improving the specific symptom you are working on reducing or eliminating.

In general though I would take a symptomatic approach and identify the specific symptoms you experience on any combination rather than the "feel" of the mattress which is more subjective and not necessarily related to specific symptoms.

In your description of the original layering it seems that you didn't have any symptoms (at least that I could see from your description) and the main issue you had was the impressions and recovery of the memory foam. If this is correct then this may just be the normal response of memory foam which takes more time to recover than faster reacting types of foam (which is why some people talk about a feeling of "sleeping in sand" with memory foam). This by itself doesn't indicate the need to make any changes unless you also have specific symptoms on the mattress (muscle strain or soreness, back pain or discomfort, or pressure points which lead to limbs tingling or falling asleep or pressure points that are sore or other symptoms that can be identified). Did you have any specific symptoms in this configuration?

I then set up the primary 8" Latex on the bottom, the 4.5 lbs, then then 8 lb on top of that and have almost two weeks on that. Much better as far as the "hole" goes.

This is where their knowledge of the different components would be necessary. I would have thought with more memory foam on top than with your original configuration that the impressions would have been more not less so this may have to do with the specific response and characteristics of each layer which I don't know. Again though ... your specific "symptoms" would be the guideline I would go by. Did this configuration cause you any pain or discomfort in any of your sleeping positions? Can you describe how it differed from the original configuration outside of the "holes" that you felt.

One of the most important "clues" to what may be happening is also to identify the specific changes in any symptoms in each configuration because this can also point to the direction of change that may be most beneficial to you. This means that it would be helpful to contrast and compare the differences between the two different configurations you have tried and how your symptoms changed.

All of this is made much more complex of course because you are also dealing with a back condition which may mean that unusual combinations may work better for you than it would for someone else whose back was healthier and in a more normal range.

But I believe that I have a good mattress combo with alternate ways to set it up so I am hoping that I can figure this out before I have to send it back. So with all this my main concern is pain upon waking. Yes I am under pain management with Dr's and have a serious disk bulge issues. With that in mind is my back to making adjustments to the bed and I have to allow these changes to take place for the long haul and you have posted in #47 or do I have the wrong set up

This is the part I'm not clear on and it would be helpful for any guidance from them (or on the forum) to know the specific type and location of the pain along with the sleeping position you experience it, when it happens, more about your body type and weight and sleeping positions, the temperature in your room, the type of mattress you had before and how your symptoms on this mattress differ from your previous mattress, the differences between your symptoms on the two configurations, and any other information that may be helpful in identifying the underlying cause of any pain or discomfort and what type of changes have the best odds of correcting it.

The first step (outside of talking with them) is to identify specific symptoms that you experience in each configuration rather than just how each combination "feels". It's the actual symptoms that are always the most important and how the mattress "feels" can be dealt with as a preference issue rather than as a necessity.

Phoenix

We ordered the Danieli model mattress from Chriteli in February of 2014. We were very unsure of this mattress from the start but decided to give it a longer trial period. Almost immediately, we received an offer from Christeli of a premium set of sheets if we would write a review. We declined to write a quick review because we had not slept on the mattress long enough. More importantly, the offer smacked of quid pro quo. For that reason we look at all of Christeli reviews with suspicion.

After 12 months the Daneli mattress was very uncomfortable on both the firmer and softer sides. I also felt like the performance was deteriorating. My wife and I have different sleeping styles and both of us are disappointment. You sink too deep without any support. My wife and I both are tossing and turning and waking with back discomfort. This mattress is simply awful and has been a waste of money. The purchase price was high. Since we were out of the "trial" period I called Christeli to see if they would make a deal on a replacement with a different model. They declined. We are replacing it with a different brand mattress.

The Christeli mattress was a very expensive mistake. And we passed on free sheets so this is an honest evaluation.

Hi kbmw94,

Thanks for the update ... and I'm sorry to hear that your mattress didn't work out as well as you hoped for.

I'm also disappointed to hear about the "incentive" for a review and I also think that these types of practices affect the credibility of their reviews in general (although as you probably know I generally suggest that it's not a good idea to pay much attention to mattress reviews anyway ... see post #13 here ).

I can't help but wonder though why you didn't exchange the mattress for a different model if the one you chose wasn't working out well for you. This is the reason that a trial period with an online purchase can be important because you can't know for certain whether any mattress that you haven't tried in person will work out for you or whether you will sleep well on it until you've tried it and once the trial period is over then it's too late to solve any issues that you may have with an online purchase.

Phoenix

PS: I deleted your post in the other topic which was a duplicate of your post here.

Hey Phoenix,

As you already know, we think highly of your web site, knowledge, and you in general.

Regarding your comment about our incentivized program, I strongly disagree that it affects the credibility of our reviews. When you read the reviews on our web site, you'll see four and five star reviews along with single star reviews too. When we ask owners to write about their experience with our company, we ask for an honest evaluation. Comments that suggest otherwise on this thread are false and misleading.

Why we didn't return the mattress during the short trail period is a good question. We had earlier purchased an
expensive Talalay mattress locally. It was a nice mattress that is now in the guest room. We just decided that we preferred memory foam to latex. That was more me than my wife. So we bought the Christeli Deneli. Perhaps I just didn't want to acknowledge two expensive mistakes. However, repackaging was required to return the Christeli. That would be all but impossible to efficiently accomplish. Manufacturers use heavy machines and vacuums to package mattress' for shipping. I certainly think that requesting a product evaluation is reasonable. However, when offering something in return is highly prejudicial and the request for the evaluation came very quickly. Too quickly in my opinion. My impression was that the offer for free sheets was prejudicial.

Kbmw94,

We appreciate your feedback. I've passed it along so we can evaluate our language to make sure our offers are received by our customers they way they are intended to be.

It's our process to reach out to every single customer within 24 hours (that started January 2015) and then again within a few months of your trial period (that started April 2013) to see how everything is going.

When we have overstock of items such as pillows or sheets, we absolutely give them away when someone writes about their experience, good and bad. If you read our Facebook and Twitter profiles, you'll see we even post the promotions on their also.

Lastly, we'll reach out to every single customer again after two years to see how everything is going, and to ask for an updated long term review. We work hard to create an amazing experience, and encourage our customers to share about theirs. And when we learn someone's experience was less than amazing, we work hard to change that.

I can assure you there wasn't any prejudice with our offer.


Best,

Vincent
Customer Experience Team
CHRISTELI

PS: I called and left you a VM this morning. Please call me direct so we can try and make your experience amazing and mattress comfortable.

Hi Christeli,

Thanks for your comments ... I appreciate them and as you know I also think highly of you and the mattresses you make as well.

I think that the whole topic of reviews is a complex one and from my perspective one of the biggest issues in the industry is that they have the influence on consumers that they do. I see this as a reflection of lack of consumer education about mattresses in general and to some degree a reflection of the unwillingness of many consumers to do more legitimate and meaningful research instead of taking "shortcuts" for a purchase that can affect the quality of their lives for many years.

I'll make a few more comments as well but one of my most common comments on the forum reads as follows ...

While other people's comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be helpful ... I would be very cautious about about using other people's experiences or reviews on a mattress (either positive or negative) as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you and in many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (see post #13 here ).

Unlike a review about the knowledge and service of a company ... the only thing a mattress review will normally tell someone else is how one particular person likes a particular mattress and even this is usually based only on initial or early impressions that are very subjective and little else. In some cases (with some of the newer online "simplified choice" mattresses especially) they are also driven by the income they earn for referrals more than a genuine desire to share their experiences to help others.

While someone writing about a mattress that they love or someone writing about a mattress that they don't like certainly isn't an issue and it's a natural tendency for people to want to share their experiences (positive or negative) with others ... the problem starts when someone else believes that other people's reviews or experiences with a mattress has any meaning or relevance for them as well and then start using reviews as a meaningful source of guidance for their own purchase. This can be very risky when it comes to more individualized purchases such as a mattress and would be similar to someone buying clothes or shoes that are a good fit for somebody else but not for them. If someone decided to buy clothes or shoes based on the "votes" of 100 people that knew nothing about them or the clothes that would be likely to "fit" them or that would match their own circumstances or their unique needs and preferences ... I wonder what the odds of a successful outcome would be?

Even worse ... what often happens is that many consumers go overboard either in their praise or their criticisms when they either recommend the same mattress to others or tell people to avoid it completely when they really don't have the knowledge, experience, or expertise to provide mattress advice for anyone else.

In many cases they also completely confuse the their own comfort on a mattress with the quality of a mattress and believe that a mattress that they don't sleep well on is a poor quality mattress that other people should avoid or that a mattress they sleep well on is a good quality mattress that other people should purchase which of course isn't the case at all. They don't realize that comfort and what I call PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) is related to the design of the mattress and how well it "fits" each individual person and not the quality of the materials.

I also realize though that there is another side to reviews from the perspective of online companies such as yours where reviews have become a major part of online marketing and consumer perception (for better or for worse) and that "counting reviews" has become just another version of "counting coils" ... and of course both of these are only about marketing and have little real value when it comes to being a useful way to choose a mattress.

Because this is part of the current reality of consumer buying habits (again because most consumers don't know any better) ... online mattress companies have become more and more heavily involved in "driving" reviews through various methods that range from more frequent followup to various forms of incentivising the review process so that they can "point to" their reviews as a source of differentiation. In some ways this is somewhat similar to manufacturers adding a few coils to their coil count and then pointing to the higher number as being "better".

The problem with incentivising reviews is human nature itself which is difficult to avoid. When the review process is incentivised ... it's common knowledge that the reviews will change their "tone" into more positive versions with different "language" that is no longer a completely accurate reflection of a customer's actual experience that would be the case with a more "organic" review process. While I certainly applaud any company's efforts to "encourage" reviews with more frequent or ongoing followup that identifies any issues with the purchase that a consumer makes and at the same time requests that they review the mattress online ... and this type of followup can often lead to very positive reviews about a company's service and their efforts to correct any issues that could otherwise have led to a negative review ... I also believe that when there is an "incentive" involved that the review process itself and the "tone" or content of the reviews become skewed and to varying degrees and they are no longer a completely reliable indication or reflection of customers' true experiences. The incentives introduce too much uncertainty into the review process. There are even some companies that carry this to an extreme or even worse pay for "fake" reviews or pay to have their reviews "cleaned up" and in these cases I personally don't trust the validity of their reviews at all.

Unfortunately ... kbmw94's review is an example of the type of review that I have been discussing. If you reduce their review down to it's basics it simply reads "I purchased a mattress that I didn't like and then I didn't take advantage of the opportunity that was available to me to replace the mattress with something that I liked better". They then wrote a "negative" review which crossed the line into using language that says things like "this mattress is simply awful" or that "this mattress has been a waste of money" which of course are only subjective opinions that only apply to two people. The problem is that unfortunately the "tone" and content of their review will likely also affect the purchase decisions of other people.

They also wrote that after the trial period was long over they were hoping that you would provide them with some kind of "deal" to replace the mattress which of course you declined (and rightfully so) but by writing about this in their review they cast a negative light on you when you were only following your own written policy that was part of what they agreed to when they purchased the mattress when instead they could have written about the mistake they made and their choice not to pursue an exchange that could have helped other people to avoid making the same mistake as they did.

After you declined they then decided to write a negative review (here and on your site) and in effect they were using "negative pressure" (the possibility of a negative review) instead of "positive pressure" (receiving something for writing a review) which both involve some kind of "pressure" to affect an outcome and really aren't much different from each other. If I was "reviewing" their review I would give it one star out of five because it just isn't balanced or a fair assessment of their experience with your company and puts the responsibility for their choices on you instead of assuming the responsibility for their choices themselves.

Phoenix