TOPIC:

Hello. I am in the Milwaukee area and here in the Cheesehead State we don't have a lot of options for latex mattresses. However, I have narrowed it down to a Savvy Rest at Olive Organics, and a latex mattress at Penny Mustard--a local business.

The Penny Mustard mattress (specs shown here ) was more comfortable to me (more "plush" and "soft") than the Savvy Rest. However, I have three concerns with the Penny Mustard mattress:

(1) When I asked the sales associate where the latex was sourced from (EG: Latex International, etc.), she said she didn't know and that "they won't tell us." ("They" being the Michigan company that makes their mattresses. When I asked what company in MI made their mattresses, she said, "I don't know." Oy.) So, although they say it is "all natural," I assume that could still mean it is a blend. If so, is that really such a bad thing? (I'm new to this whole latex mattress thing, so forgive my ignorance!)

(2) I asked what the "Miliken Paladin" fire retardant barrier was comprised of and, again, she responded with "I don't know." After some research it "seems" to me as if this is a low toxicity (although not completely non-toxic" substance (silica, if I am not mistaken). However, I'm not a scientist, so I don't know what I don't know.

(3) Penny Mustard a "365 day comfort guarantee." Now, a comfort guarantee sounds nice, but I am always a bit concerned with companies with such liberal return policies; I often wonder if they just repackage the mattersses and send them out again. (A former boyfriend worked in a furniture store that did such returns (NOT Penny Mustard--he worked at a store that has since gone bankrupt) and he told me the sales reps were told to say that returned mattresses were sent to "outlets," but in reality they put them back into circulation. I asked him how that could happen because I thought that wasn't legal and his response was, "Who's gonna police it?" Yuk! So, that has always made me a little leary of working with companies that allow people to return mattresses. BUT..that could just be m paranoai based on my former friend's comments. Adding to my paranoia, of course, is PM's requirment that you buy a $60 mattress cover because, "We can't take the mattress back if it has any soil or stains on it. "It must look like new condition," according to the sales associate. Hmmm.....

I really liked the feel of the Penny Mustard mattress better than the Savvy Rest, but am wondering about the quality of the PM mattress. They also put their mattress on a box spring. I asked the sales associate if it was okay to put it on a slatted platform bed, and she looked shocked and said, "Oh, NO! A slatted platform offers NO support for the mattress! You need a SOLID platform--or a boxspring like this." When I told her that my research indicated that a slatted platform with the slats no more than two inches apart was best, because it allowed for circulation under the mattress, she disagreed. Yet, their "boxspring" (which was a few wood planks on the bottom and very hard steel / wire on top? seemed to me to be the same concept as the slatted platform. (Right now I have an old spring mattress and traditional box spring so, again, all of this is new to me.)

Clearly, either the sales rep or I am a bit confused. I'm not sure at this point which one of us is confused.

My question is this: Do you have any info on where Penny Mustard sources its latex? What is your impression of the mattress in the link?

Many thanks for any insights anyone may have on this.

Cheers!

Ignoring the fact their sales person doesn't have much info:

1. They advertise the moscato as having 100% natural talalay. That's fairly generally interpreted as all natural, and therefore not blended (unless they're flat out misrepresenting it).

2. Completely outside the scope of your question, I am entertained by the number of layers they use. Especially that they do a firmer over less firm approach. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it's definitely not your everyday 2-3 layer of latex design.

3. I'm not a legal expert, and don't even live in the USA, but why exactly do you believe it's illegal to sell returned beds? I had always assumed it was company policy that would determine if that happened? Surely, they don't destroy beds used for only 30, 60, 90 days...

4. It's completely legit for a company to make you follow a contractual term or condition before they will honor an exchange. A $60 mattress protector does not seem out of sorts.

5. A mattress manufacturor would know best what kind of support / box spring to use with their product. You're probably not wrong, but then, you're not the one having to honor the warranty if something goes wrong

6. Everything they advertise as putting into the mattress appears to be very high quality.

7. It's surprising they add a chemical fire barrier at all, assuming you're correct about that. They use organic ticking and organic wool, and natural talalay. The wool would often be used to achieve fire barrier, and otherwise a mattress like that would often be sold as a premium 'organic', 'all natural', 'without chemicals' mattress at a higher price.

thanks for your reply, dn.

to reply to a couple of your comments:

1. regarding whether selling mattresses illegal or not, I was basing that on my former boyfriends who actually work at the mattress company. Also, the sales rep at penny mustard also indicated that I could not resell a used mattress common orkut day. Who knows who's right?

2.I think you misinterpreted my, about the mattress cover. I was not objecting to the fact that the required a mattress cover for return. My concern is that they were so focused on making sure no lol sorry I was on the mattress. Now, I understand that they don't want to spoil that respect. But, I don't want a used mattress sold to me either.

3.I, too, found it quite odd that they had firm over soft layers. That seems backwards to me. I think what I felt was so soft and cushy was actually the cotton cover. The Savvy Rest cover is not nearly as nice.While I was on the PM mattress it actually felt very cushiony and soft. However after being on the PM mattress for about 10 minutes and getting up, my back seemed to go into soasms. I did not have that experience with the Savvy Rest. I was not as comfortable while on the SR, but I had zero back pain after laying on it.

I also have been spending some time reading other pages in the storm, and noticed most on here do not like the Savvt Rest. Any reason why? Anything I should be aware of?

I think tomorrow I'll go back and try the penny mustard mattress again, and see how my back reacts then.

pardon the typos in the previous post. It's late, and I'm using voice recognition software because I'm too tired to type. Lol! Obviously the software doesn't always work.

Hi DogLover,

A forum search on Penny Mustard and Platinum Dreams (you can just click both of these) will bring up more information and comments about both of them.

(1) When I asked the sales associate where the latex was sourced from (EG: Latex International, etc.), she said she didn't know and that "they won't tell us." ("They" being the Michigan company that makes their mattresses. When I asked what company in MI made their mattresses, she said, "I don't know." Oy.) So, although they say it is "all natural," I assume that could still mean it is a blend. If so, is that really such a bad thing? (I'm new to this whole latex mattress thing, so forgive my ignorance!)

Platinum Dreams mattresses are made by Clare Bedding which is the Restonic Licencee in their area. Restonic sources its Talalay latex from Latex international as far as I know.

Latex International makes both 100% natural Talalay and blended Talalay. The blended comes in ILD's of 14, 19, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, and 44. the 100% natural comes in firmness ranges from N1 to N5. If the ILD's are correct it would indicate that the Talalay latex they use is blended which many manufacturers call "natural" vs "all natural" which refers to the 100% natural ( see here ). It certainly gets confusing because if a manufacturer said that their mattresses contained all "natural" latex it can be read to mean that all of the latex in the mattress is "natural" (which is blended) while if they say all the latex is "all natural" this would indicate that the latex is 100% natural. The terminology is confusing and often leads to manufacturers and retailers confusing which is which.

(2) I asked what the "Miliken Paladin" fire retardant barrier was comprised of and, again, she responded with "I don't know." After some research it "seems" to me as if this is a low toxicity (although not completely non-toxic" substance (silica, if I am not mistaken). However, I'm not a scientist, so I don't know what I don't know.

I would consider a viscose/silica inherent fire barrier to be non toxic. you can read more about this type of fire barrier in post #2 here and the post it links to.

(3) Penny Mustard a "365 day comfort guarantee." Now, a comfort guarantee sounds nice, but I am always a bit concerned with companies with such liberal return policies; I often wonder if they just repackage the mattersses and send them out again. (A former boyfriend worked in a furniture store that did such returns (NOT Penny Mustard--he worked at a store that has since gone bankrupt) and he told me the sales reps were told to say that returned mattresses were sent to "outlets," but in reality they put them back into circulation. I asked him how that could happen because I thought that wasn't legal and his response was, "Who's gonna police it?" Yuk! So, that has always made me a little leary of working with companies that allow people to return mattresses. BUT..that could just be m paranoai based on my former friend's comments. Adding to my paranoia, of course, is PM's requirment that you buy a $60 mattress cover because, "We can't take the mattress back if it has any soil or stains on it. "It must look like new condition," according to the sales associate. Hmmm.....

It would be illegal to repackage the mattress and sell them again as new and while it's possible (and some stores have been caught doing just that) ... it's not likely IMO that they are one of them. They are usually sold to liquidation outlets who will often sell them as "scratch and dents" etc. The requirement for a mattress cover and no stains of any kind is so that employees don't have to handle a mattress with stains and the health issues that could be connected with this. Of course a stain could also affect their ability to re-sell the mattress to a liquidator or clearance store after it's been sanitized. The cost of comfort returns are built into the cost of the mattress and in some cases it can result in people who are more careful in their mattress choices and don't need a comfort exchange paying for the exchanges for people who test less carefully.

I really liked the feel of the Penny Mustard mattress better than the Savvy Rest, but am wondering about the quality of the PM mattress. They also put their mattress on a box spring. I asked the sales associate if it was okay to put it on a slatted platform bed, and she looked shocked and said, "Oh, NO! A slatted platform offers NO support for the mattress! You need a SOLID platform--or a boxspring like this." When I told her that my research indicated that a slatted platform with the slats no more than two inches apart was best, because it allowed for circulation under the mattress, she disagreed. Yet, their "boxspring" (which was a few wood planks on the bottom and very hard steel / wire on top? seemed to me to be the same concept as the slatted platform. (Right now I have an old spring mattress and traditional box spring so, again, all of this is new to me.)

A mattress is only as good as its construction and the quality of the components and materials inside it. Both of these use latex which is a high quality material regardless of the type of latex used. Savvy Rest has a more flexible design because it allows for re-arranging or exchanging layers which can fine tune the mattress after a purchase in many ways while with the Restonic you are limited to the actual design of the mattress. The Platinum Dreams is two sided and two sided designs (that are flipped regularly) are more durable than a similar one sided design. With layered latex mattresses with a zip cover you can also replace just a single layer though if the top layer softens before the rest. Savvy Rest uses either organic Dunlop or 100% natural Talalay while the Restonic appears to use blended Talalay. You can read more about the different types of latex in post #6 here and more about blended vs 100% natural Talalay latex in post #2 here .

I really liked the feel of the Penny Mustard mattress better than the Savvy Rest, but am wondering about the quality of the PM mattress. They also put their mattress on a box spring. I asked the sales associate if it was okay to put it on a slatted platform bed, and she looked shocked and said, "Oh, NO! A slatted platform offers NO support for the mattress! You need a SOLID platform--or a boxspring like this." When I told her that my research indicated that a slatted platform with the slats no more than two inches apart was best, because it allowed for circulation under the mattress, she disagreed. Yet, their "boxspring" (which was a few wood planks on the bottom and very hard steel / wire on top? seemed to me to be the same concept as the slatted platform. (Right now I have an old spring mattress and traditional box spring so, again, all of this is new to me.)

You can read more about the different types of support systems that are generally used or appropriate for different types of mattresses in the foundation post here and the two other posts it links to in the second paragraph. Box springs are generally used for innerspring mattresses although there are some latex mattress manufacturers that use them under a latex mattress (generally thinner) because the box spring can change the feel of the mattress and is designed as part of the sleeping system. With thicker latex mattresses it's generally not necessary and in most cases even desirable. A box spring that flexes can change the feel of a mattress vs a solid non flexing foundation or platform bed that doesn't flex. You can also read more about a solid platform vs a slatted surface in post #10 here . It sounds to me like their "box spring" may be a wire grid type which is a semi flex (not a box spring with actual springs which which flex) and you can see my thoughts about these with an all latex mattress (with latex in the bottom layer of the mattress) in post #10 here .


@dn,

7. It's surprising they add a chemical fire barrier at all, assuming you're correct about that. They use organic ticking and organic wool, and natural talalay. The wool would often be used to achieve fire barrier, and otherwise a mattress like that would often be sold as a premium 'organic', 'all natural', 'without chemicals' mattress at a higher price.

Wool needs to be needle punched and used in a certain amount and way to pass the fire code and it's often just as easy (and less costly) for a manufacturer to use an inherent fire barrier which gives the flexibility to either use less wool or use it in different ways. The viscose/silica fire barriers aren't a "chemical" fire barrier and are non toxic. You can read more about wool fire barriers in this article that is written by someone that I respect highly and is very knowledgeable about passing the fire regulations.

Both of these mattresses use high quality materials and there are no obvious weak links in their designs.

Phoenix

Thank you, Phoenix, for the wealth of information in your reply to my question.

Today I went back to Penny Mustard to try the mattress again. This time, a different sales associate spoke to me and she seemed much more knowledgeable. I asked her how long the mattress had been on the floor, and she said it had been there over two years, possibly longer. She told me that the biggest complaint they get from customers about that mattress is that it is a LOT harder/firmer than what customers tried in the store. She said that was because the fire barrier needed time to soften up, and suggested to her customers that they either walk or "knee walk" across the mattress several times when they get it to soften it up.

Does that sound right to you? She showed me a sample of the Miliken Paladin fire retardant and, frankly, it was cottony-soft so I am a bit confused as to why it would need to be "softened up." The sales associate, who said she had never felt the fire retardant sample before, seemed equally perplexed. We both laughed that if it got any softer or lighter it would float.

Although the mattress at Penny Mustard felt slightly cushy, it was still a bit firm. I am worried that a brand spankin' new one may be too firm. However, I also felt the Savvy Rest configuration was a bit too firm. (It was medium Dunlop, medium Talalay, soft Talalay.) The guy at Savvy Rest said they just stopped getting their latex from Latex International and are now getting it from Radium and it is something called "Vita Talalay." The Savvy Rest guy told me the Radium Talalay is a bit softer than the Latex International Talalay, although he did not give me ILD numbers.

Given the configuation of the Savvy Rest, and of the Penny Mustard ( here's the configuration --I would not get the topper, just the mattress), which do you think would work best for me? I like matresses on the plush/very soft (yet supportive) side--NOT firm! I am 5'5.5", and weigh 122. I am intersted in pressure relief and softness in a mattress, while still getting one that doesn't "sag" or "hammock." I have read some reviews online that say the Savvy Rest tends to sag, and I think that was with the previous latex from LI, but I'm not sure.

I also prefer the feel of all Talalay, but in the SR, that would be too expensive for me. The reason I liked the all Talalay at some of the stores I tried is because it feels much softer to me than a combo. Even with just the foundation layer in Dunlop, I can feel the that harder layer while on the SR. The other thing with the SR, is that I could swear when I sit down on it (with the M-Dunlop, M-Talalay, S-Talalay confirguration) that I can feel myself sink down an "hit bottom." The sales associate told me I was just hitting the Dunlop layer, and not the actual platform/slats, and said I just had a "hyper-sensitive body" and picked up minute differences that most people don't.

I have been researching latex mattresses for over a year now, and the more I learn, the more I am convinced latex is a wonderful choice. But getting the RIGHT latex that is comfortable yet affordable is quite a different undertaking.

Hi Dog Lover,

Thank you, Phoenix, for the wealth of information in your reply to my question.

You're welcome ... I also realized I didn't link the foundation post in the part about box springs and foundations but it's corrected now.

Given the configuation of the Savvy Rest, and of the Penny Mustard (here's the configuration--I would not get the topper, just the mattress), which do you think would work best for me? I like matresses on the plush/very soft (yet supportive) side--NOT firm! I am 5'5.5", and weigh 122. I am intersted in pressure relief and softness in a mattress, while still getting one that doesn't "sag" or "hammock." I have read some reviews online that say the Savvy Rest tends to sag, and I think that was with the previous latex from LI, but I'm not sure.

I really have no way to know this because I can't feel what you feel or see you on the mattress. This is the part of mattress shopping where you will need to rely on your own careful and objective testing for PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) using the testing guidelines in the the basic information post here . Softness, firmness, and "feel" are also subjective and only you can know what feels soft or firm to you (regardless of how it feels for anyone else).


I also wouldn't pay much attention to online reviews (see post #13 here ). Latex is the most durable of all the foam materials regardless of which manufacturer uses it in their mattress and outside of actual defects in manufacturing (which can certainly happen on occasion) it softens less than other foam materials. Having said that ... softer versions of any material will soften more than firmer versions and the softer versions of LI's 100% natural Talalay will soften faster and is less durable than the blended Talalay especially with people that are in a higher weight range. In some cases people will often talk about a mattress sagging when in fact they have chosen a mattress that is too soft and they are sinking in too much. If Savvy Rest was having a sagging issue then every other manufacturer that used the same materials (which is a lot of mattress manufacturers) would be having the same issues ... and of course they aren't. The materials in a mattress are always more important than the name of the manufacturer who makes it.

All mattresses will go through some degree of break in period where the foams soften a little, the cover, quilting, and other fabrics stretch a bit, and any fibers will compress. This is a normal part of all new mattress purchases although latex will soften less than most other materials.

Latex is also very "point elastic" which means it contours very well to the shape of your body and compresses in the specific areas where weight is concentrated with less effect on the areas around it so it's not unusual to sink in more when you are sitting on it ... particularly with softer latex. When you are lying down it is also very supportive because it also gets firmer faster with deeper compression than other materials. You were almost certainly feeling the firmer Dunlop and the effect of all the layers firming up as they are being compressed when you sat on the latex because it would take a very high weight to even come close to bottoming out on 9" of latex with that configuration.

Phoenix

Hi, Phoenix.

I just wanted to give you an update. After spending about six hours reading through your site (great info!! ), and going back to the stores and also calling Claire bedding, I found that the mattess I liked is being discontinued and they don't have any in their warehouse. They (Claire bedding who, as you know, makes the mattresses for Penny Mustard) is in the process of re-vamping that mattress and making a different one which they tell me will be more firm. So, that really won't work for me, as I prefer a softer mattress and I thought that one was a a bit too firm to begin with. I asked why they were changing if the mattress they had was such a good seller (which they say it is), and he told me it was to reflect chaning market demand for a firmer mattress, which I understand.

So, I have decided to go with a "DIY" construction. That way, if something seems too firm, I can always switch out a layer.

Once again, thank you so much for your insights--not only in response to my post, but in the plethora of information throughout this site.

Cheers!