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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 12 May 2013 11:41 #21

  • levander
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Phoenix, I think what I'm going to tell people, generally...

Getting a mattress with a pillow top (from a store like OMF) is the easiest way to get a really comfortable bed for a good price.

If you want to put more work digging around the internet and a few hundred dollars more, you can get a firm, basic bed and play with toppers. The downside is you can't test the whole combination before buying and you'll end up paying return shipping for toppers you return. Plus, if you keep more than one topper, that's even more money. But the upside is you can easily replace your topper to have a new cushiony feel even five years after you bought your mattress. And you can experiment with the feels of different of materials.

The distinction between these two options, I'm going to encourage them to get a pillowtop because I think a person should show some motivation and be willing to over-ride me if they want to go the topper route. It could have pay-offs, but there's work to be done and they need to show motivation if they want to go that route.

If you want to spend more than that, you get into latex, memory foam, water-beds that I didn't really look into, but I could show them a couple of places to look for information.

You think those are decent, very general guidelines to give somebody?

There are always a bunch of exceptions though, like if you have serious back problems, I'd tell them they have even more interest in testing the combination before buying...

But a lot of that depends upon the quality of the OMF pillowtops. If you'd like me to gather some more information about them, please let me know. Like if an OMF pillowtop is going to show horrible signs of wear two years down the road, even if you flip and rotate it religiously, I still wouldn't recommend pillowtops at all, to anybody.

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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 12 May 2013 15:31 #22

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Hi levander,

Well, I just looked at your post #32. The specs you list there are about the same specs I listed in this thread. But in post #32 you say these are high quality materials...


The "high quality" materials I was referring to are the higher density polyfoam ... not 1.2 (low quality) or 1.5 (low/mid quality) foams.

Durability is also relative to many factors though (which you can see in post #4 here and the posts it links to) and in the right types of construction and design, even lower quality polyfoam can be a relatively durable material and perfectly suitable for lower budget ranges where costs don't allow for higher quality/cost foams.

A detail I did leave out was that quilted onto the top fabric of the mattress is some of that baffled, egg-crate looking, polyfoam. Remembering what you said about putting a harder layer on top of a softer layer and how that adds to durability, I mentioned it to the salesman I was talking to (this wasn't the main OMF factory store in Atlanta, but it was the guy that owned the OMF sales storefront I was at) and asked if that increased durability. His answer was "well, it's really the fact that it's a two-sided mattress that increases durability. If it wasn't for the fact that it was a 2-sided mattress, I'd be worried about durability of that polyfoam too". But even though he was an owner, he was also a salesman, so I don't know how much what he said really flies.


I certainly agree with him that a two sided mattress is a bigger factor in durability than a firmer layer of lower density foam although both will have an effect (just like everything else). You can see an example of a two sided mattress design at the end of post #2 here made by a manufacturer that I know well and respect that uses 1.5 lb polyfoam where a reasonable expectation of longevity "on average" would be in the range of 10 - 12 years.

If it seems relevant, I'll go back to an OMF store and write down what layers are in those mattresses by looking at the mattress cut-outs. I meant to do this before I bought a bed, but there was so much running around in my mind, I didn't get it done. Since I bought a bed, I've got several friends and family who having mentioned they may buy a bed so I'm interesting in knowing what this means about durability.


Not only would this be relevant ... it's the only way to make any meaningful assessment of any mattress or meaningful comparisons between mattresses.

Maybe after the mattress "breaks in", these problems will go away?


In the first 30 - 90 days the mattress will go through an initial break in period where foams lose their "false loft" and get softer, fibers will settle and compress, and covers will stretch and become more conforming. In addition to this you will also go through an initial adjustment period with any new sleeping surface in the same period of time. In most cases this is mostly in the first 30 days or so.

I've already bought a topper from Flobeds. The shredded latex one that looks weird online because it's like a line of horizontal baffle rows. It's here:

www.flobeds.com/products/2101ST


Yes I've seen it and it's in the list of toppers and components under "shredded latex toppers"

I saw Phoenix's reviews of two competing shredded latex toppers, one of them was the Seven Comforts one. When I get it, I'll have to see if it craters, if it's too soft for me, and if the seams that connect the baffles together bother me. The customer support guy at Flobeds I talked to said they fill the baffles with so much shredded latex, they won't crater and act like a feather-bed. He also said they don't get many returns, but the returns they do get are because of the seams. Every time I talk to a salesman though, I'm always sitting there wondering what to believe and what not to believe. Once it comes in the mail, I'll have to see then.


The last time I looked the Seven Comforts was no longer available either on Amazon or on their own site but it appears its back in stock on their own site which is good news.

In my experience you can trust what Flobeds tells you and it's more 'accurate" information than "sales" information.

Phoenix, you recommend letting the bed "break-in" before adding a topper. Can you give me a general idea why this is?


Because the feel and performance of the mattress will change during this time to a longer term more "steady state" and a topper will interact with the mattress under it so if you choose a topper using the initial feel of a mattress as a guideline for what you need then the odds are higher of making a less suitable choice than if you base your choice on the longer term feel and performance of the mattress (after you have adjusted and the mattress has broken in).

Getting a mattress with a pillow top (from a store like OMF) is the easiest way to get a really comfortable bed for a good price.

If you want to put more work digging around the internet and a few hundred dollars more, you can get a firm, basic bed and play with toppers. The downside is you can't test the whole combination before buying and you'll end up paying return shipping for toppers you return. Plus, if you keep more than one topper, that's even more money. But the upside is you can easily replace your topper to have a new cushiony feel even five years after you bought your mattress. And you can experiment with the feels of different of materials.

The distinction between these two options, I'm going to encourage them to get a pillowtop because I think a person should show some motivation and be willing to over-ride me if they want to go the topper route. It could have pay-offs, but there's work to be done and they need to show motivation if they want to go that route.

If you want to spend more than that, you get into latex, memory foam, water-beds that I didn't really look into, but I could show them a couple of places to look for information.

You think those are decent, very general guidelines to give somebody?


As I have often mentioned ... where you buy from and the knowledge and experience of the owners and staff can be a more important part of a successful mattress search than your own knowledge. Finding an expert is much simpler, less frustrating, and more effective in most cases than trying to become one :)

Pillowtops can be tricky and risky depending on what is in them and the design of the mattress so a more "generic" recommendation for a pillowtop without knowing what is in it or the details of its construction can lead to some poor choices if they are not able to tell the difference or aren't dealing with a knowledgeable and experienced salesperson who will give them accurate information that is suitable for their specific needs and preferences.

I have spent thousands of hours of online research and thousands more talking with some of the most knowledgeable manufacturers in this country and hundreds more testing mattresses and I still only tell others HOW to choose ... never WHAT to choose (with the odd exception where a choice is more black and white and there are specific reference points from their experience I can use). What is suitable for one may be completely unsuitable for the next. Mattress advice is notoriously unsuccessful unless it is focused on the process and sources of quality, value, and service along with their experience, knowledge, and integrity rather than the specifics of which mattress is best for anyone else.

So outside of your pillowtop suggestion (which can be good in some instances and not so good in others) ... the advice is good "generically" as a guideline IMO but the danger of any advice is that they will take it specifically and replace their own careful and objective testing and research with someone else's advice which can lower their odds of success because they will trust the advice more than their own "educated" judgement and personal experience.

But a lot of that depends upon the quality of the OMF pillowtops. If you'd like me to gather some more information about them, please let me know. Like if an OMF pillowtop is going to show horrible signs of wear two years down the road, even if you flip and rotate it religiously, I still wouldn't recommend pillowtops at all, to anybody.


Each of their pillowtops have a different combination of layers but adding any specific information about any mattress to the forum database here can certainly help others who are looking at the same specific mattress and is always welcome.

Thanks for all the feedback ... so far ...

And most importantly of all ... congratulations on your new mattress :)

Phoenix
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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 12 May 2013 20:35 #23

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I've already bought a topper from Flobeds. The shredded latex one that looks weird online because it's like a line of horizontal baffle rows. It's here:

www.flobeds.com/products/2101ST


Part of the reason I went ahead and bought that topper (and 2 shredded latex pillows) was because they were on a 50% off sale. They may have gotten me with the old "limited time offer trick". We'll see if I got snookered or not when the stuff comes in the mail.
.


Gorgeous topper. I keep looking for something with latex that's baffled in some way. Please let me know how it goes for you.

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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 12 May 2013 22:56 #24

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Hi Paisley,

Gorgeous topper. I keep looking for something with latex that's baffled in some way. Please let me know how it goes for you.


There are a couple of others listed in the topper/component post under shredded latex in post #4 here as well.

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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 27 May 2013 17:30 #25

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Hey Pheonix, I was gonna follow-up sooner, but got really busy. I have been perusing the board occasionally in the mean-time and just get more awestruck at how much information you make available here that's not readily available anywhere else I can find...

I certainly agree with him that a two sided mattress is a bigger factor in durability than a firmer layer of lower density foam although both will have an effect (just like everything else). You can see an example of a two sided mattress design at the end of post #2 here made by a manufacturer that I know well and respect that uses 1.5 lb polyfoam where a reasonable expectation of longevity "on average" would be in the range of 10 - 12 years.


Okay, interesting. I just read this. It's good to know the polyfoam densities in the OMF pillowtops are not a huge red flag. And OMF is telling customers to expect to replace a mattress every 8-10 years, probably a conservative estimate (but one that also makes them sell more mattresses...)

In the first 30 - 90 days the mattress will go through an initial break in period where foams lose their "false loft" and get softer, fibers will settle and compress, and covers will stretch and become more conforming. In addition to this you will also go through an initial adjustment period with any new sleeping surface in the same period of time. In most cases this is mostly in the first 30 days or so.


Two weeks in, I'm still really enjoying the firm innersping mattress I bought. One thing I'm thinking is having a firm mattress encourage people not to be too lazy and lay around on their mattress too much. It's not like laying on a really soft pillowtop where it's comforting even if you're not just about to fall asleep. I can lay on a soft mattress for a couple of hours messing around with my iPad or Kindle before falling asleep. But my firm mattress, if I'm not asleep in say 45 minutes, I get up and move around. And in the morning, I'm less likely to lie there in the waking stages for too long.

I've never had to go this far in treating my insomnia, but there is a severe form of treatment for it called sleep restriction. What this is is basically the person doing it is only supposed to get in bed an hour for the first night, and if he sleeps he sleeps, if he doesn't, he doesn't. Then you slowly increase the amouth of time the person can stay in bed at night. This gets him used to be in bed and able to sleep at specific times during the night, so he's not sleeping in the middle of the day and sleeping weird.

I've never had to go that far, but I do pay attention to how much I'm in bed and not sleeping. Having a firm mattress is definitely an encouragement not just to lay around all day on a super-soft pillowtop...

What's strange about enjoying a firm mattress so much, is I'm comfortable when I'm falling asleep (as long as I'm not flopped around somehow weird on it), but in the morning when I wake up, I'm really surprised how much I enjoy the bed then. This must be because of me, my muscles are just more relaxed in the morning.

One caveat, I've only been sleeping on this bed two weeks, an a few days ago, I did notice the area on my back behind my right shoulder was a little sore. I wouldn't describe it as "pain", because it didn't really effect my usual activities. Just occasionally when I wasn't doing anything, I'd be thinking, "wow, a massage would feel really nice right now.."

I have spent thousands of hours of online research and thousands more talking with some of the most knowledgeable manufacturers in this country and hundreds more testing mattresses and I still only tell others HOW to choose ... never WHAT to choose (with the odd exception where a choice is more black and white and there are specific reference points from their experience I can use). What is suitable for one may be completely unsuitable for the next. Mattress advice is notoriously unsuccessful unless it is focused on the process and sources of quality, value, and service along with their experience, knowledge, and integrity rather than the specifics of which mattress is best for anyone else.


That actually explains a lot about your writing style. You are very generous and care about people being as informed as possible, but also try to make very sure you are not overstepping anything, and give bad advice. Must make it weird trying to type things in sometimes...

So outside of your pillowtop suggestion (which can be good in some instances and not so good in others) ... the advice is good "generically" as a guideline IMO but the danger of any advice is that they will take it specifically and replace their own careful and objective testing and research with someone else's advice which can lower their odds of success because they will trust the advice more than their own "educated" judgement and personal experience.


Yeah, I was limiting my generic advice to pillowtops just because that's what everybody buys. When my mattress came in the OMF truck, there were about 8 other mattresses the guys were delivering that day. I got a real kick out of the fact that I was the only one who didn't buy a pillowtop, lol.

But yeah, saying pillowtop as a main option is a big generalization, even for general advice.

As an aside, it was very interesting talking to the delivery guys about OMF the company. Apparently, a few years ago OMF implemented an ESOP, employee stock option program. OMF isn't a publicly traded company, but they are getting stock in OMF as a private company. There's some ladder to the program, where after 6 years of employment, you get more stock than before. You don't get any until you've been there two years. It was very interesting have a truck delivery guy come to your door that owned stock in the company you had bought a mattress from.

Also, the way that Razynsky (sp?) guy who started OMF does it, every time he expands to a new state, he finds partners somehow. He keep ownership of 51% of OMF in that state and the (usually 3) partners own 49%.

Thanks for all the feedback ... so far ...


Not sure what the "so far" means... That's not some kind of warning against my babbling on too long, is it??

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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 27 May 2013 17:49 #26

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Hi Paisley,

Gorgeous topper. I keep looking for something with latex that's baffled in some way. Please let me know how it goes for you.


There are a couple of others listed in the topper/component post under shredded latex in post #4 here as well.

Phoenix


Yes, that's where I found the flobeds topper, from your list, of course!

The topper came in the mail last week, and I unwrapped it last night. I'm not sure what I think about it or not. I did only lay on it for an hour or so. Flobeds customer support told me the topper doesn't come with a "rest test". E.g., if I sleep on it, I can't return it...

The searching around I did about this topper, there was very little information people had written about it. Phoenix reviews two competing shredded latex toppers here in post #38 and I was going to buy the Seven Comforts topper, but they're web site says they are out of stock in size queen and they didn't reply to an email I sent asking when it would be back in stock.

The little I found about the Flobeds shredded latex topper, people were worried it would crater like the Lanoodles topper in Phoenix's review. It doesn't crater, they put so much shredded latex in the baffles that they're so full, they don't crater.

Another very common worry I found around the internet is the seams in the topper that connect the baffles. When you lay on it, you compress the baffles down, but you don't compress them down so much your body touches the seams. I had to run my hand behind my back to figure out there is some empty space between your back and the topper where the seams are. But you don't really notice the empty space. it's like your brain fills in these areas. Or maybe it's that the shredded latex is so soft, you just don't notice the difference between laying on air for short spaces and laying on shredded latex?

I'm thinking my main disappointment so far, is I got a size queen. The pictures on the web site must be of a topper for a smaller bed. Because on the size queen, there is a seam right down the center of the topper that connects two side together. Laying on the topper, it did feel like I was leaning toward the center seam... Which I definitely did not like.

And when you first lay on it, you don't feel the air in between the baffles like I said, but it does kind of feel like you're laying on a bunch of rows of cushion. The cushion is so soft, it almost feels a little unstable... I'm wondering if after awhile, the softness compresses some, and it doesn't feel so unstable? I did notice after laying on the topper, the "unstable-ness" did seem to become less of an issue. But the feeling of leaning toward the center seam didn't become less of an issue. I just noticed that after about 45 minutes, I happened to have flipped over a little and was now in the center of the bed.

It was very comfortable laying on top of the seam... It's like I said before, you don't notice there are short spaces in between the latex that are just air.

I'm not explaining it exactly right, but it kind of felt like you were laying on an expensive mat you brought with you out in the woods to sleep on when you went camping...

I've only laid on the thing for an hour though. I'm trying to decide what I'm going to do. They told me that if I sleep on it, I can't return it. I may sleep sleep on it and return it anyway, I don't know. It's also a possibility to use the return protection feature of my AMEX Blue Cash card and return it to them if Flobeds won't take it back.

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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 28 May 2013 01:54 #27

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Hi levander,

Thanks for the feedback about the flobeds topper.

The little I found about the Flobeds shredded latex topper, people were worried it would crater like the Lanoodles topper in Phoenix's review. It doesn't crater, they put so much shredded latex in the baffles that they're so full, they don't crater.


Don't forget too that one of the reasons that people would choose a shredded latex topper is because it does "crater" ... or more accurately "displaces" to different degrees under the more "pointy parts" of the body like the shoulders while it would "compress" more under the parts that have more surface area. A shredded latex pillow is the same (it can be "scrunched" more into different shapes and doesn't stay flat like a solid piece of latex. This is why they can sometimes be less risky for alignment than a solid latex layer.

The baffles would also be somewhat "3 dimensional" and as they are compressed they would spread out horizontally to some degree as well as along the baffles and create a more "even" surface (depending on the amount they are filled) as well as compressing vertically.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once you have slept on it for a while (if you do) which will probably be a much different experience from a shorter "test run".

Thanks for taking the time to share your feedback :)

Phoenix
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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 28 May 2013 13:16 #28

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Okay, I slept on the thing last night. Opinion hasn't changed much, was basically just reinforced to a higher degree.

Don't forget too that one of the reasons that people would choose a shredded latex topper is because it does "crater" ... or more accurately "displaces" to different degrees under the more "pointy parts" of the body like the shoulders while it would "compress" more under the parts that have more surface area. A shredded latex pillow is the same (it can be "scrunched" more into different shapes and doesn't stay flat like a solid piece of latex. This is why they can sometimes be less risky for alignment than a solid latex layer.


I was using the term "crater" like you were using the term featherbed in your reviews of the other 2 shredded latex toppers linked in my last post.

This is what you say (for people who don't wanna link over):

The Seven Comforts is thicker (about 2") and maintains a more even thickness across the surface because of the compartments while the Lanoodles overall is thinner and will have more thickness variations across the surface (like a featherbed) and will "flow" more from area to area.


What I was trying to say is Flobeds fills it baffles with so much shredded latex, you don't get the thickness variations and the topper doesn't act like a featherbed.

The baffles would also be somewhat "3 dimensional" and as they are compressed they would spread out horizontally to some degree as well as along the baffles and create a more "even" surface (depending on the amount they are filled) as well as compressing vertically.


Yeah, I was trying to talk about the 3-D surface above. Let me summarize quickly so I can be more clear.

The baffles are connected by seams. You don't feel the seams, but there is a little bit air that you're laying on between the seams. When you first lay on the topper, the baffles are so soft and with air between them, it feels like you're laying on a lot of really soft horizontal bumps. Between the air and the really soft bumps, it made me feel like I was laying on something unstable. It made me feel like I was laying on a really expensive mat that I had brought with me to go camping.

Now, this "unstable" feeling goes away after 10 minutes. Either because the shredded latex compresses more and isn't as soft or because your muscles get used to it, I don't know.

Because the unstable feeling goes away so quickly, I don't think it would interfere with sleep. But you've got this nice expensive topper you're all excited about sleeping on at night, and the first thing you feel when you hop on it is this unstable feeling.... And when something light like your foot hits the topper, even after you've been laying on it awhile, you still get that unstable feeling under your foot.

The only thing that doesn't go away is the feeling your leaning to the center of the topper because of the center seam. And that really bothers me.

I did sleep on it fine. It's not like it's so bad it prevents you from sleeping or causes pain. It's just not the feel I prefer.

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts once you have slept on it for a while (if you do) which will probably be a much different experience from a shorter "test run".


Yeah, I still haven't decided what I'm going to do with the thing.

Even though I'm not crazy about the topper, I do encourage others to try it. As Phoenix has mentioned other places in this forum, novices a lot of times don't really know all the ins and outs and so usually can't review products effectively. I would especially encourage people to try if they have a twin or maybe full size bed that Flobeds doesn't put the center seam on. I would call and ask and make sure there's no center seam though. The topper does seem well made, just I question a couple of design decisions they made. Even though it's pretty obvious why they made those decisions, I wonder if there wasn't a different way to tackle the same issues that would have worked better.

The shredded latex pillows I got in the same order from Flobeds, I do love.

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Last edit: by levander.

Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 29 May 2013 13:51 #29

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Hi levander,

What I was trying to say is Flobeds fills it baffles with so much shredded latex, you don't get the thickness variations and the topper doesn't act like a featherbed.


Gotcha :)

I wanted to make sure that people didn't get the impression that "cratering" or "impressions" were a "bad" thing with a shredded latex topper because it's part of the design and "cratering" is usually used in a negative sense when it's used to describe foam.


Thanks once again for your "overnight" feedback as well! It's certainly the best (and only) description on the forum for this topper and would certainly be helpful for others to make some kind of comparison to the other two shredded latex toppers that are mentioned in other posts.

Phoenix
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Best OMF mattress to buy to add a topper later? 30 May 2013 14:43 #30

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Levander,

Dave here from FloBeds... Thanks for taking the time to try our products. I am so glad you like our Twice-Fluffed Shredded Latex pillows (I sleep with two of them myself). I also saw that you wished the seam in the center of the topper was not there. No problem. We can make one for you without the seam. We make a left and right side on our Queen and King toppers so that each sleeper can adjust the shoulder, lumbar or hip area firmness as they like (although most people love it just like we ship it). Give us a call or email and let us know if you would like to exchange yours for a "no-split" version.

Dave

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