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received my brooklyn bedding talalay topper - surprised and disappointed 18 Apr 2013 03:39 #21

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Hi g1981c,

I wasn't originally planning to even respond to your post because your complaints just seemed so outlandish to me that I didn't even think they were worth responding to but since others have replied with similar thoughts I thought I would add my comments anyway.

First of all ... any manufacturer can make a mistake and the appropriate response to a mistake would be to call them first and ask about it rather than posting in a public forum first. In your case ... since the cover was a "free bonus" ... I think that your complaints are simply unreasonable ... especially since you didn't even bother to call them.

Secondly ... your complaints and comments about the firmness of 19 ILD talalay which is the second softest layer that latex International makes is simply bizarre ... especially in the face of repeated cautions I have given you about the risk of choosing such soft and thick materials with your higher weight.

Quite frankly ... I agree with vici0usx's comments that your comments are on the borderline of "trolling" and as I have previously warned you for a different reason that was a violation of the forum rules ... you seem to be intent on pushing as many of the forum rules as you can as far as you can.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

received my brooklyn bedding talalay topper - surprised and disappointed 18 Apr 2013 19:26 #22

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Hi g1981c,

I wasn't originally planning to even respond to your post because your complaints just seemed so outlandish to me that I didn't even think they were worth responding to but since others have replied with similar thoughts I thought I would add my comments anyway.

First of all ... any manufacturer can make a mistake and the appropriate response to a mistake would be to call them first and ask about it rather than posting in a public forum first. In your case ... since the cover was a "free bonus" ... I think that your complaints are simply unreasonable ... especially since you didn't even bother to call them.

Secondly ... your complaints and comments about the firmness of 19 ILD talalay which is the second softest layer that latex International makes is simply bizarre ... especially in the face of repeated cautions I have given you about the risk of choosing such soft and thick materials with your higher weight.

Quite frankly ... I agree with vici0usx's comments that your comments are on the borderline of "trolling" and as I have previously warned you for a different reason that was a violation of the forum rules ... you seem to be intent on pushing as many of the forum rules as you can as far as you can.

Phoenix


when i tried the PLB their top layer was 21 ILD and their topper was 14. the 14 felt too soft too me, but the 21 felt quite firm - i expected 19 to feel close to 21 - but it does not. it feels close to 14.

but now i think i know what happened - when i tried the PLB the 21 didn't feel as if it provided 50% more pushback than 14 which should have been the case mathematically - instead it felt as if it provided double. and now i think this is because the PLB mattress had a relatively thick and inflexible cover while the toppers have relatively thin and flexible cover. when i put half a dozen of various pads and comforters on top of the 19 ILD BB topper it feels much firmer than it does all by itself - in fact it feels as firm as i expected it to feel - except that obviously i don't want to be using it under half a dozen pads.

i already contacted BB and talked about POTENTIALLY exchanging the toper for a different ILD but i can't do it now because i don't have the other pieces of the puzzle at hand which makes it impossible for me to judge what ILD i need. this is why i ordered 2 more pieces of foam yesterday so i can evaluate this 19 ILD topper IN THE ACTUAL MATTRESS because i can see now that this can get tricky.

IN FACT ! because the topper cover has a very hard fabric on the bottom side, it will present serious challenges for me to evaluate the firmness of the topper since if i decide to keep it i will remove the cover and without the hard fabric it will make the bed feel much softer - but once the cover is removed, because it is not zippered, i will no longer be able to return or exchange the topper.

life would be a lot easier if BB simply put a zipper on their covers - how hard would that be ? is an $1 zipper really too much to ask on a $230 topper ? i would have been much better off without the cover ( which is what i ordered by the way ) because then i could do the proper testing which now i can't without ruining the topper.

these complaints are not unreasonable - if it was your money time and energy you would probably see things my way.

regardless, i am not knocking BB as i have since placed an order for another topper - a 2" 36 ILD - this time i didn't bother asking for discount since i know they will ship me the cover anyway. so clearly i don't think BB is all that bad.

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Last edit: by g1981c.

received my brooklyn bedding talalay topper - surprised and disappointed 18 Apr 2013 20:34 #23

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Hi g1981c,

Again .. your inexperience about the industry and your tendency to criticize and find fault is showing through.

The cost of adding a zipper is certainly not dependent on the cost of the zipper and you are the one who bought the topper as it is. If you want a topper with a zipper ... then that is what you should purchase rather than buying one that clearly doesn't have one at all and then complaining that there is no zipper. As has already been mentioned ... you can remove the cover which you didn't pay for anyway then you wouldn't be "bothered" by the cover at all ... no matter what it is.

these complaints are not unreasonable - if it was your money time and energy you would probably see things my way.


You may believe this all you like ... but the fact is that my approach is clearly very different from yours, looks at a bigger picture, and is not quite so self centered. Your complaints are not only unreasonable IMO ... but quite frankly bizarre and somewhat absurd ... especially in the context of the replies that I have already provided to you.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

New Purebliss Beautiful too firm? 19 Apr 2013 02:46 #24

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well when i tried PLB in the store i felt the need to put a topper on their thickest and softest model ( world's best bed ) and i'm a 230 pound former bodybuilder / powerlifter so i don't really understand it when Phoenix says that a certain model PLB may be too soft for some type of sleepers in certain sleeping positions - as far as i am concerned they are all too firm for me, and somebody who is lighter than me could probably use a much softer bed than i can use.

even though Phoenix knows that it is a myth that firm beds are automatically good for the back i think he still is trying to be conservative with his advice and try to steer people such as myself in the firmer direction.

what happend when i tried PLB in the store is at first i thought they were very soft, because i was coming from a much firmer bed that was painful to sleep on, but as i ( following Phoenix's advice ) spent more time on the PLBs ( like 20 minutes ) my impression of too soft changed to too firm as i started to feel my pressure points while initially it felt like i was floating in the air ...

so i think it can be two things:

1 - the latex may need to break in

or

2 - you didn't test the bed in the store long enough

proably it is a combination of the two ...

the good news is, as long as your bed surface is perfectly flat ( no uneven springs or body impressions ) you should be able to "fix" it by softening it with toppers IMO.

i don't think you need a 14 ILD topper to soften the beatiful - i think a 19 ILD topper would still soften it simply by making the comfort layer thicker even though it would essentially be same ILD as beautiful itself.

also Phoenix is absolutely right - anything you have on the mattress unless it is super stretchy or made out of foam will make it feel harder - even putting the sheets on a very soft topper can make it feel harder.

Phoenix will probably remember better but i believe you are not the first person to complain that a PLB feels firmer than in the store - i think this is pretty much normal

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New Purebliss Beautiful too firm? 19 Apr 2013 03:23 #25

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Hi g1981c,

Let me be direct with you because I won't give you another warning.

You are in the process of building your own mattress ... and struggling to do it.

You are asking questions that have little relevance or connection with real life or based on some deeply flawed assumptions and looking for overly specific answers that don't exist ... and worse yet either not reading or at least clearly understanding most of the replies and information you have been given.

And now you are offering ill considered advice or opinions based on the subjective perceptions of a single person (you) that not only contradicts the firmness ratings of Pure Latex Bliss itself ... but decades of experience by almost every manufacturer in the country that manufactures latex mattresses.

I won't argue with your perceptions ... they are yours to experience no matter how much outside of any average they may be.

But as soon as you extrapolate them into the likelihood that someone else will feel what you feel or that your experience is the "norm" (or even that you fully understand your own experience) then it needs to be replied to, clarified, and "corrected".

I would recommend that you stick with trying to build your own mattress and if you choose to provide "advice" to other forum members ... I would make clear that you are sharing your personal experience (or more accurately inexperience) that is not likely to apply to others and not based in fact and refrain from offering so called "authoritative advice" or opinions about what you believe will or won't work for others ... at least until you gain enough personal experience and knowledge to put your own mattress together successfully.

I am happy when most people make comments and suggestions to others here based on their own experience or based on the knowledge they have gained in their own mattress search and testing and recognize the concept of YMMV your mileage may vary) but your advice, comments, and questions are beginning to become tedious. This is not your personal playground. This is also not designed to be a forum (like others I know of) where anyone can present themselves as knowledgeable "experts" where the information on the forum ends up becoming a mish mash of conflicting advice and opinions where nobody can tell anymore what may be based in fact and what is based simply in opinions masquerading as fact.

If you persist in flirting around the edges of what I consider to be acceptable on this forum ... whether you consider it to be reasonable or not ... I will simply put your "offending" posts and future posts into a single thread with an appropriate label so that those who want to can read them all at once

As a point of reference ... the most common complaint about the Beautiful on this forum (and elsewhere) for people who are heavier (and some who aren't) is that it doesn't provide them with good spinal or joint alignment because of the softness and thickness of the upper layers and that and various Pamper/topper combinations are probably the most common complaints about the PLB lineup.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

foamexpress1.com shipped my foam order same day i placed it 19 Apr 2013 21:53 #26

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on the 18th ( that is yesterday ) i ordered a 3" piece of queen sized 2.6 LB HD foam in 50 ILD. it was $149 with shipping ( to NY ).

today i receive the tracking number which shows that my foam was ALREADY IN TRANSIT on the 18th - which is THE VERY DAY I PLACED THE ORDER and it shows that i will receive the foam on Monday - which is only 2 business days after i placed the order.

compare this to the service i am getting from Arizona Premium Mattress which promised to ship in 5-7 business days, it has been OVER TWO WEEKS and they haven't even got the foam in their warehouse yet, so they don't even have anything to ship yet ! ! !

i have received even worse service from foamonline.com where i was forced to do credit card chargeback altogether because after a week i couldn't even get them to confirm to me which ILD foam they were going to cut for me - nor was i able to get them to cancel my order. after a week of futile conversations with them on the phone ( several per day ) they were promising to cut the foam ( what foam only god knows ) "next monday" so i called my credit card, put charges in dispute, blocked them from further charges, and immediately informed foamonline of my actions so they would not needlessly cut the foam.

as far as brooklyn bedding - my first topper that i ordered got shipped out the next day as i was promised. yesterday i orodered a second topper from BB and so far no word about it's shipping but that's ok, 2-3 business days to ship is reasonable. when i was a seller on Amazon i was obligated to ship in 2-3 business days although i always shipped the next day. if it doesn't ship by about tuesday then i will give them a call.

also the SnugFleece i ordered from DreamSoft Bedware via Amazon yesterday - today i got a tracking number for, although it's just a shipping label not actual physical pickup. but still - that's a lot better than not even having product in the warehoues more than 2 weeks after the order.

because ArizonaPM can't ship my 24 ILD layer i can't adequately test my 19 ILD layer that i already have ( although it was ordered next week after i ordered from Arizona ) and therefore i can't tell whether to exchange it for different ILD. because of it i also can't tell how tall my mattress will be and therefore i can't tell whether i can use ikea bed frame or whether it will be too tall, so i can't order the bed frame and can't finish the bed. they're holding up my entire bed for WEEKS because of their incompetence and false promises.

also, i have previously ordered from Foam N More ( FoamExpress1 ) - it was my first ever experience buying foam and it was very positive - it was the foam i built my grandma's bed with. the foam i ordered yesterday and got shipped the same day is the same exact 50 ILD 2.6 LB HD foam.

so all in all my ratings SO far ( to be revised later ) are:

foamexpress1.com - 6 out of 5 ! lowest prices, fastest shipping, nice ladies pick up the phone when you call.

brooklyn bedding - 4 out of 5 ! very low prices, fast shipping, somewhat strange product ( cover that says bamboo on the front and polyester on the back )

arizona premium mattress - 3 out of 5 ! low prices, slowest shipping ever, but at least they reply to my emails

foamonline - 1 out of 5 ! high prices ( their HR poly foam that i was trying to order cost almost the same as Latex i eventually ordered from Brooklyn Bedding ) slow shipping ( it would have taken well over a week for my order to ship - in fact it would have taken ( according to them ) well over a week for it to even get cut. abysmal customer service ( i was able to talk to them on the phone without problem, but was unable to get them to confirm in writing ( e-mail ) anything. in other words i was unable to get them to send me an e-mail telling me what ILD foam i was going to get. you're wondering - why didn't i know which ILD i ordered ? well because their geinus website doesn't allow you to order the foam that they have - it allows you to order *some* foam and they will ship *the next closest that they have* but you can't actually get them to e-mail you and say which is it that is *the next closest* ...

anyway, i hope this helps you fellow DIY mattress builders !

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Need help with memory foam mattress for side sleeper 19 Apr 2013 22:55 #27

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stenstageous you may have gotten it backwards with memory foam

higher density with memory foam means higher quality and durability - you want the highest density on top where you will most directly feel it and also where the foam will bear the brunt of the abuse

of course you want softer foam on top and firmer on bottom, but that has little to do with density

for example a good combination might be 8 LB Venus foam on top of 5 LB Sensus foam. the Sensus is firmer than Venus while Venus is higher density, quality and durability.

of course ultimately my theoretical comments may be irrelevant to your particular situation given the extremely limited availability of good memory foams - in other words they foams that theoretically should suit you best may not simply be available. this is the main reason i am using Latex - you can get it in any ILD from 14 to 44 while memory foam is mostly about 10 to 15, plus most latex is "good" while most memory foam is "bad" ...

i probably wouldn't use more than 3 inches of memory foam of the kinds of foam that are available to us. the only way i would go for a mattress with more memory foam than that is if i was getting a Tempurpedic because they have more specialized types of memory foam that can work for deeper mattress layers which aren't available to us. pretty much all the memory foam we can get is usable only for the top 2 - 3 inches of mattress. Bayer can be the exception - thats' why Rocky doesn't sell it as a topper, but uses it in their custom mattresses instead. even so, it's still just 15 ILD so it is only a hair firmer than 14 ILD Sensus.

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New Purebliss Beautiful too firm? 19 Apr 2013 23:22 #28

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Phoenix you have a very Authoritarian view of knowledge - kind of what people in the East Asia might have, or in the Middle East - where ancient teachings are strictly adhered to and nothing is questioned.

I am more about the Wikipedia model - where everybody can contribute - and in fact i have edited articles on Wikipedia and nobody complained. I don't represent myself as expert on here and i don't think anybody believes that i am or would take my opinion as if it was some kind of final judgement.

I think it is very telling when you say that you don't intend this forum to be a forum. I was wondering if you realized that you're not allowing this forum to be an actual forum and i am glad to see you do realize it.

Obviously nobody can tell you how to run your own site and you have every right to ban anybody, delete or move anything. At this rate however you're lookign to spend the rest of your life answering questions that have been asked 100 times before simply because you're afraid somebody else might answer them "wrong" ...

These things happen you know ? Not everything we are told is 100% correct. In fact from my experience 90% of what we're told is deliberate lies. People need to learn how to process information to separate fact from fiction. And if you don't have a problem with answering every single question yourself forever - maybe you should rename "forum" into something less misleading - like "ask Phoenix free expert advice" or something.

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Budget latex foam mattress choices 20 Apr 2013 13:22 #29

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i'm currently sleeping on a 2" talalay topper from BB on top of an innerspring - DON'T DO IT - it doesn't work

for me it's just a temporary setup until Arizona Premium Mattress gets off their ass and actually ships my foam which i ordered over 2 weeks ago ... but as a permanent solution you will regret getting springs

it's like going to medical school so you could shoot yourself in the foot and then operate on yourself - its absurd - why use springs to create pressure points and then use latex to try to pad them out - makes no sense

you would be far better off using regular poly foam all the way from top to bottom - it would only cost you about $400 and it would be much more comfortable than latex on top of springs

it basically doesn't matter much which foam you use - you just need enough of it and of the right firmness - whether you use regular poly, latex or memory foam is just icing on the cake - just don't use springs and you will be fine

finally, if you're in such a tight financial squeeze that you have to consider springs you can simply go with memory foam foam mattress - it may not be as classy as latex but it will run circles around anything with springs

i know Phoenix will think i am giving you bad advice and it's just my personal opinion - but no, sorry, the statistics back it up. innerspring mattress satisfaction statistics are abysmal - no other type of bed even comes close to being as bad. once again, Phoenix will say - oh those people they had bad springs, it doesn't count - but that's once again becoming a doctor so you can shoot yourself in the foot logic - creating problems just so you can solve them - fact of the matter is springs are worthless garbage - always were and always will be, and everybody knows it. Phoenix can be "objective" and "scientific" about springs all he wants but the facts are simple - they suck.

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What is ILD & Help SF Bay Area Seconds Clearance Demos Returns 20 Apr 2013 21:27 #30

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ILD is a measure of firmness of foam as measured by compressing the foam 25%. you need to be careful using ILD alone because it does not measure the ultimate ability of the foam to support weight, for which 65% compression test is much more useful. the ILD merely measures how firm the foam will feel, but not how much weight it will take to bottom it out. this is why you have high grade foams and low grade foams - high grade foams are hard to bottom out and hard to wear out and typically have high pounds per cubic foot density.

you always need to know the ILD of the foam that you are going to use - the only exception to this is memory foam used in the top layer, which pretty much always compresses far past 25% anyway so ILD measure for it is less relevant. for memory foam the pound density may be more important, but for all other types of foam ILD is the first thing you need to know, however if you know ONLY the ILD you will be able to make only an OK but not great mattress, and the mattress you make may fail in only a few months if you don't use high enough grade foam.

a typical mattress may have something like 3" of 19-24 ild comfort layer on top of a 6" layer of 28-36 ILD - but the more you weigh the higher the ILD will need to be, plus it will depend obviously on layer thicknesses. however there is no good formula for adjusting ILD for thickness as both very thin and very thick mattresses will require higher ILD ( greater firmness ) foam than average ones. this is where field testing comes in.

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Last edit: by g1981c.
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