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About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 20 Apr 2013 23:34 #11

  • Daemon
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There are a lot of "memory foam purists" that would only consider sleeping directly on memory foam but a quilting layer can have some real benefits. They include improving ventilation compared to sleeping directly on memory foam and then can also increase the resilience of the sleeping surface (or lower it in the case of latex). The quilting would reduce or slow down the response of the memory foam but this can be offset with different types of foam formulations that are a little less sensitive to heat (and have a good response in a wider temperature range). You can read a bit more about some of the potential benefits of a quilting layer in post #2 here . In my own case for example ... I personally like a thinner latex layer over a thinner memory foam layer (this is just a personal preferences not any "better than the other way around) which creates a more resilient surface and slows down the memory foam response even though it goes against more 'traditional" memory foam layering and also reduces the response of the memory foam (which is the goal of the design).



I'll definitely check that link out tomorrow.
I agree that many people's results with a bed can be improved by playing with those memory foam and top layers, however - would you ever think about using a stuffing over memory foam? Gel yes, latex, sure - but stuffing? This looked like the same Dacron fiber used to fill speaker cabinets or cheap Rooms to Go throw pillows. PMC uses the identical pillowtop material that a conventional innerspring has. I think their entire product menu was arrived it in an attempt to not alienate the Perry Como crowd by forcing them into that newfangled space age foam stuff.

This can also extend the life of a mattress (but not double it) even for foam. When a foam layer is on the bottom ... it is compressed very evenly and over its entire surface because of the materials above it and most of the compression forces are absorbed by the mattress before they reach the bottom layer so it compresses much less than the top layers.


I get what you're saying, but it doesn't hold that much water for me. If I lay on a bed with a comfort/support system, the comfort layer transfers the force almost directly downward to the support layer. That weight doesn't cease to exist. It can only spread further downward until it meets the next layer of resistance, whether that be another weight/ILD of foam, or the base of the bed. The only other thing it can do besides spread downward is spread outward, which it does to a certain extant, but not fully. That is, the weight doesn't extend to the outer edges of the support layer before going downwards.
What happens with a two-sided bed, unless I'm getting this completely confused, is that the weight of the occupants goes through the comfort layer, diffusing laterally somewhat, than down to the support layer, diffusing laterally again, before reaching the opposite comfort layer. Not only does this layer receive a maximally diffused weight from the occupants, it receives the weight of all the layers above it. It will compress fairly uniformly at the bottom. I'm just drawing a blank in trying to comprehend how that would be able to recover while it was on the bottom. I keep in mind the companies that sell memory foam and latex beds rolled up in a box, and tell their customers that they can leave it in the box for a couple of weeks while they get their room ready, but not to push it much past that or risk deforming the mattress. At some point, continuous pressure changes the mattress. If its a person laying in it 20 hours a day, it'll eventually get a bruise from it. If its the weight of two people plus the entire mattress on top of a memory foam layer, its going to collapse it somewhat.

Or maybe not. I'm still learning.


On the top ... the areas that are under the greatest concentration of weight are the ones that will soften first. Foam also does "recover" to some degree when it is given a chance to rest (which it would on the bottom). Of course it's also important to make sure that with a double sided design that the soft layer on the bottom isn't so thick that it creates alignment issues so this is part of the difference and tradeoffs between one sided and two sided designs. Two sided designs will be more durable than one sided equivalent designs but they don't have the same design flexibility as a one sided version because the comfort layers are more limited in scope and you don't have the same progressive firmness type of layering from bottom to top throughout the mattress.



IMO, I think its just using up room that a good transition layer or thicker support layer could be taking up.


Thanks again for taking the time to write such an informative and entertaining review :)


Its my pleasure. You've done a lot to help me, time for me to return the favor. Somewhere along the way, I might even end up with a new bed. :lol:

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About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 21 Apr 2013 01:10 #12

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Hi Daemon,

would you ever think about using a stuffing over memory foam?


Absolutely ... fibers such as wool certainly can play a role ... even with a memory foam mattress. Synthetic fibers can also add breathability and some resilience and even a preferred "hand feel" (minimal compression less than 25%) vs just memory foam and would represent an improvement for some people over sleeping directly on memory foam but I also have to say that I would tend to be cautious with polyester fiber in quilting layers because they can compress fairly easily over time and if I ws looking for a low cost material for a quilting layer I would tend to use quilting polyfoam instead because it is more durable, more functional, and will keep it's properties better and longer without compressing down over time. All of this is more about personal preference than a "better or worse" scenario. There are many manufacturers who use quilting above their memory foam mattresses although foam is more common than synthetic fibers.

I get what you're saying, but it doesn't hold that much water for me. If I lay on a bed with a comfort/support system, the comfort layer transfers the force almost directly downward to the support layer.


This is actually not correct with foam mattresses (although it is with innersprings). Foam has a property called hysteresis (which is the opposite of resilience which is the energy that is stored and returned) which absorbs the compression forces and dissipates it in the mattress (as heat) and the compression forces spread out like a cone shape not directly down. The further down you go in the mattress the more spread out the compression forces are. The deeper layers will compress much less than the upper layers of a foam mattress in other words to the point that if a mattress is thicker ... the bottom foam layers may not even noticeably compress at all or even have a noticeable effect on the feel and performance of the mattress. Memory foam has the highest hysteresis and the lowest resilience of all the foams. The compression forces on the bottom of a mattress are much more widely spread out (less force per area) and don't stress the foam to nearly the same degree as the top layers as it "rests". Not only is this "theoretically" correct ... it is also well known by mattress manufacturers who know all of this from personal experience and the length of time their mattresses will last. A two sided mattress is one of the ways that you can use lower density foam and have it last longer than higher quality materials in a one sided mattress. It's the uneven and greater pressure on the top which softens or degrades the materials (more force per area).

Phoenix
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About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 23 Apr 2013 12:33 #13

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Hello again everybody... I'll make this post a bit shorter than my last review; I had a terrible night's sleep (about 2 hours, maybe) so I'm on the edge of not making sense right now. Today's topic: Body Rest Mattress

The factory is centrally located in St. Pete in one of the few remaining industrial areas. I arrived without an appointment and was introduced to Mike, one of the office staff. He was pretty well informed on the products, and when I told him about my disc injuries he said we shouldn't waste time on the innerspring mattresses. He led me over to the opposite showroom, which contained all their foam biscuits.

He started me on the lower end mattresses and I worked my way up to the high end stuff. Predictably, the most expensive mattresses felt the best. I was disappointed to see they all had pillowtop/quilt toppers, but according to Mike they didn't use a synthetic fiber under a shiny-satiny fabric like Pittsburgh Mattress had, instead Bodyrest used a 1-2 inch latex layer in a wool quilt, which had a definite feel advantage over the PMC stuff. I chose two of their lines, the Gabriella and the Bellisima, both available in visco foam and latex. In line with my experiences to this point, I preferred the visco versions of each bed over the latex. This was revealed to me after I tried each mattress without knowing the composition, so its not a personal bias. Up until I ranked my choices I thought they were all 100 percent latex.

At the end of my visit I got a list of dealers from the office, since BR doesn't deal directly with the public. I called the first one and they no longer carried the product. The second one was still an affiliate, but strangely they couldn't give me the prices right away. I had to submit my list of preferred mattresses along with the size and I was told they'd call me back in 20 minutes. On the return call, I was told that mattresses ordered would be significantly cheaper than mattresses in stock, and they were out of stock on both of them. The Gabriella latex (my second choice) was $3846 in stock, $2700 on special order. The Bellisima latex (my fourth choice) was $3050 in stock, $2200 on order. Oddly, they refused to stock or order the visco versions of either mattress, saying they had incurred problems with both. Unfortunate, since the Gabriella-V was my first choice, and the Bellisima-V was my third.

I can potentially recommend Bodyrest, with reservations. The mattresses felt nice, and in the upper ranges were quite comfortable, but the pillowtop definitely interferes with sinking in to the mattress, so the comfort isn't quite there like it is on the typical Tempur, or the InnoMax mattresses I've tried. The office staff were extremely pleasant and had information ready when I needed it. Their computer system is extremely antiquated so be prepared to waste your next birthday candles wishing a private detective would show up to track down affiliated dealers and save everyone some time and effort.

One final detail I must mention: I saw that every mattress was on a matching foundation. I asked Mike if there was any reason why I couldn't use their mattress with a pedestal, and he firmly pointed out that using anything but their specific foundation for each mattress would affect the warranty.

So far the tally is:

InnoMax B
Bodyrest C
Pittsburgh Mattress... has no GPA, all courses incomplete.


Hopefully this weekend I will get to Bedmasters and bring this search to a close. Last night was the worst sleeping night I've had in months.

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Last edit: by Daemon.

About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 23 Apr 2013 16:18 #14

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Hi Daemon,

Once again I really appreciate your great feedback.

I've linked your thread to the Bradenton list so that others can benefit from your research as well.

Thanks again :)

Phoenix
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About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 25 Apr 2013 12:47 #15

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Today's subject: Matter Brothers

The Cliff's Notes: the search has ended, at least for me.

I had some time today to continue the mattress chase. Although I had planned to visit a couple more manufacturers in the Sarasota area, my route took me right past the Clearwater location of Matter Brothers. I had previously avoided going there because I figured "furniture store, make their money remarketing overpriced home items from offshore manufacturers, their bedding is probably crap that costs too much". I haven't been this wrong in a long time, and I'm happy to say it.

The showroom is a low slung affair filled with little areas designed to look like rooms in the home, just like most other furniture stores. It was lacking in the twenty foot high ceilings and halogen lamps of the typical big category killers, almost claustrophobic by comparison, but it felt cozier as a result. I was almost immediately tackled by a salesman, but since I wasn't there to do typical furniture shopping (read: get the hell away from me so I can think) I decided it didn't have to be adversarial. I actually needed to hear from someone to see how they represented their products and the store in general.

It was a good decision. The salesman turned out to be a soft spoken gentleman who had been recently hired by that location. He had years of experience in bedding but was new to Matter's products. He led me to a very effective bed display, probably the best one I've tried so far. Lots of options available, spanning everything from low end innersprings to very expensive full Talalay beds. They also carry a full selection of Leggett and Platt pillows, sheets and protectors.

I asked the salesman a few questions that stumped him since he was new, so he brought the sales manager over to meet me. He was extremely knowledgable and gave me a personal perspective on my quest, as he also had a lumbar injury that has been getting progressively worse. It was interesting to hear them talk to each other as the manager answered the salesman's questions while he was also helping me. I got the impression that the BS level was low to non-existant with these guys.

In my previous research I've been able to quickly narrow my choices down at other shops, and usually had no trouble cutting it down to one or two within 10 minutes. I tried half a dozen mattresses, and I liked everything I tried. I was there for almost two hours and could only get it down to four choices:

Natural Rest Latex model #1900 - 11 inch Talalay latex with Outlast cover and 30 year warranty

Earthrest Stratus model #1400 - 7 inch Talalay with 4 inch HD polyfoam base and 20 year warranty

Theragel Memory Foam model #2800 - 12 inch memory foam (unless I read their chart wrong it really is a foot thick piece of memory foam??) with Outlast cover, 20 year warranty

Standard Memory Foam model #900 - 11 inch with mock fleece cover and 20 year warranty

After spending a lot of time on each one of these four, I think I have it narrowed down to the two memory mattresses, though my girlfriend will get her say. I think the Natural Rest will be off the table as its almost $600 out of my price range, unless I fall on some money next time I go skydiving.

I usually dislike latex beds right off the bat, but these models were very comfortable. Not enough to make me rule out memory foam, but enough to make me think seriously about going all latex.

I'm going to force a choice this weekend. I think InnoMax has a great value in their Trinity mattress at $850 for a king size, and if price was a top consideration I'd be all over it. It is truly comfortable. However, for under $1300 I could get that model 901 from Matter and be really happy.

If you need pillows Matter has a damn good selection. I tried everything Leggett & Platt offered (...I think - there was a lot there to try) and was really impressed with the gel pillow. Perfect for side sleep, maybe too thick for back sleep, but great for reading until its time to roll over and turn off the light.

Again, I have to thank Phoenix for posting a link to Matter on his Bradenton info thread. I've been around them for decades and didn't know they made their own beds. Their website has a tiny 4x4 button that offers no product info - clicking on it goes to a contact form, not a product page. I would never have gone in there if it wasn't for TMU, and now I'm glad I did. Happy and relieved, actually. It looks like I'm done shopping for the most part.


Questions?

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About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 25 Apr 2013 17:13 #16

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Hi Deamon,

Once again you've added real value to the forum and I thank you for your comments.

I have a comment though about one of the mattresses you mentioned.

Theragel Memory Foam model #2800 - 12 inch memory foam (unless I read their chart wrong it really is a foot thick piece of memory foam??) with Outlast cover, 20 year warranty


I would have a harb time believing that any "sane" manufacturer would make a mattress like this because of the tendency of memory foam to continue softening over the course of the night which would make this a very risky mattress construction in terms of potential support and alignment issues. This would be the type of mattress where you could start off the night in good alignment but then wake up with a back ache. Memory foam needs a good support material under it that will "stop" the pelvic girdle from sinking down too far and "tilting" which causes the spine to bend in ways that are outside of its "neutral" curves and if this was the actual construction and the memory foam was good quality ... it would also be a very expensive mattress as well.

Theoretically it's possible I guess but I would really doubt that this was the case and I would want to know the specifics of the layers inside the mattress.

I'm glad that your search is close to over and that you've found the "best" source for a mattress for your needs and preferences.

Thank you again and with the link to your feedback on the Bradenton thread it has certainly become more informative and valuable than it was before your research.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

About to abandon Tempurpedic... need advice on a Florida purchase 26 Apr 2013 04:11 #17

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That is exactly why I questioned it. Unfortunately the only person around when I asked the question was the new salesman, not the manager, and by the time that guy came back from looking up the mattress-only prices, I moved on to looking at other things. I'm going back in the next few days so I'll press the question at that time.

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About to abandon Tempurpedic... or maybe not 13 Oct 2013 07:45 #18

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Here's an update for those of you interested in my mattress search saga...


I selected the Theragel mattress from Matter Bros. I also picked up a king gel pillow from Leggett & Platt for my girl. I already have a king Tempur Cloud pillow that no one will ever take from me, so I didn't need a pillow. I also decided on the L&P mattress and pillow protectors since I sleep incredibly hot most nights.

To revisit the previous Q&A Phoenix and I had, this mattress is definitely not a 12 inch monolithic memory foam mattress. Its in several layers, 5 if I remember correctly. Before I purchased, the store put me in touch with the factory manager, who also happens to own this particular bed for himself. He gave me the complete breakdown of everything in the mattress, along with some of their proprietary stuff that I won't get into here, regarding how they have several layers pre-bonded by the foam wholesaler prior to shipment. All in all, I thought the build was a little complex, but I was happy with the display model feel, so I went with it.

Altogether, my package deal was around $1800 delivered. The delivery service was professional and very quick, though I was disappointed in some snafus regarding the scheduling that required me to take an extra day off work

I was more disappointed that the mattress did not feel like the one that was in the store. There seems to be very little support in one of the layers, and I sink into the mattress before the memory foam takes over and does its thing. Interestingly, it feels very similar to the collapse of my Tempur mattress, though it lacks the flimsy feeling that mattress displayed. The mattress still feels "solid", but mushy. I can flatten my hand and push on it and it behaves just fine, but if I make a fist and add a little pressure, my hand sinks right in.

If you think about this for a moment, you'll see where this isn't going to work, especially for people who have low back injuries and need support. The pressure points that exist and the hip and shoulder are going to focus more of the bodyweight on the mattress and will therefore sink in like there was less support there.

I called the store to complain, and received a call back from the manager very quickly. After hearing my story he promised they would make it right, and then had the factory manager call me to discuss it. He offered to rebuild the mattress, and continue to do so until I was satisfied. All I had to do was make the pilgrimage to their factory about an hour from my house and go over some foam structures with him and he would have my mattress picked up and redone. That is a great guarantee, and great service.

Unfortunately, my schedule doesn't permit me to make the trip during the week, and they only build beds during the week. The manager offered to open the factory on Saturday, his day off, so we could go over this. Again, great service.

So far, I have not been able to get down there and get this taken care of, but I will be sure to post up when I have results to share. Perhaps I can get the foam numbers for the original bed for you folks to dissect.

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About to abandon Tempurpedic... or maybe not 13 Oct 2013 13:33 #19

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Hi Daemon,

Thanks once again for the update.

It would be interesting to know the layers of the Theragel you chose for the benefit of others that may be considering it and to rerlate the construction of the mattress to your personal experiences as well. As I mentioned previously it would have been very surprising to me if it had been all memory foam.

I can flatten my hand and push on it and it behaves just fine, but if I make a fist and add a little pressure, my hand sinks right in.


This would be the norm with all mattress materials because your fist has a smaller surface area and the weight is more concentrated which means that the foam materials will compress more.

I have to say I'm impressed with their service and their willingness to accommodate your schedule for making adjustments to the mattress.

I'm looking forward to hearing about the outcome.

Phoenix
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About to abandon Tempurpedic... or maybe not 22 Mar 2014 09:59 #20

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Phoenix is it possible,for the bed that you choose at the show room to be different from the bed that was delivered as in Dameons case? This really scares me. After all of his in depth research and finally finding a bed, he gets it home and says it is not what he tried in the show room. How is a consumer supposed to be able to trust that what you see is what you get? Thanks, Anna

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