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Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 10 Mar 2013 18:18 #1

Phoenix,
We are looking for a mattress for our 13 year old daughter. She's been sleeping on a 27 year old, full size King Coil, that has finally sagged significantly as the foam has broken down and she has grown.

What do you know about Paramount Dr. Maas DM 600 vs the Paramount Dr. Maas C300? We also looked at the Original Mattress Factory Classic Plush. We looked at the Paramount mattresses at Haynes Furniture here in Richmond, Va. Can't find much info on componentson Dr. Maas at all. OMF Classic Plush seems to be of reasonable quality.

Any other options for a teenager who will go off to college in 5 years?

Many thanks!

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Last edit: by TDI Hoo.

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 10 Mar 2013 21:34 #2

Hi TDI Hoo,

Paramount is a privately owned manufacturer that in general terms I would consider to be one of the 'better" quality/value choices. Retailers that carry them have also told me that they are transparent about the materials they use. I don't know the specifics of either mattress you are mentioning but you should (hopefully) have little difficulty finding out the details of the layers and components so you can make meaningful comparisons. As you mention ... google searching brings up no meaningful information about them and their site only has more generic information that doesn't mention any specifics about any of their mattresses.

Original Mattress also uses good quality materials for their budget range and you can see some examples of the foam densities they use in post #32 here although they can vary with each mattress. While every salesperson there is unlikely to know the specs off by heart ... they all have a book where they can look up the specs of all the layers in their mattresses. On some occasions you may find a salesperson who seems reluctant to do this but the information is available to all of them. The Classic series is a basic Bonnell coil mattress with cotton and polyfoam comfort layers and is the softest of the two sided models in the line. If the majority of the polyfoam is 1.5 lb density then it would be reasonable to expect some foam softening and impressions over the course of 5 years but nothing that would affect the quality of sleep over the course of 5 years or longer if the mattress is suitable for her body type, sleeping style, and preferences. I would also make sure you purchased it as a set because the boxspring can be an important part of both the performance and durability of an innerspring mattress.

If any of the retailers you are dealing with provide you with the specs but aren't able to explain what they mean then of course you are always welcome to post it here and I'd be happy to make some comments about a particular mattress you are looking at.

In case you haven't seen it (although I suspect you have from your research and previous mattress purchase from Cozy Pure) ... some of the better options in the Richmond area are in post #5 here . I know from previous conversations with her that Michelle from Bedcrafters is particularly knowledgeable about mattresses and materials and would probably be well worth a phone call or a visit as well. Some of the Golden mattresses at Richmond Bedding are also good quality/value and they have double sided mattresses there with higher quality foams as well.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Administrator. Reason: Updating link to https: status

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 17 Mar 2013 21:24 #3

Thanks as always, Phoenix. We continue to look. Michelle at Bedcrafters once again is not a pleasant experience and cost is crazy high. Others may have had great experiences at Bedcrafters, but we and others have not.

Here's the only info on the Paramount Dr. Maas pillow top with memory foam. Can you help to decipher?



No one knows weights or densities of the layers, but the price is $499 for Dr. Maas 600 queen or full versus $479 for full Classic Plush and $549 for the queen Classic Plush. Daughter says both are comfortable, with Dr. Maas a bit more plush.

Picture not so good. Here are the layers. Seems awfully complicated.
1. Natural FR Rayon fiber
2. Natural Silk/Wool fiber.
3. Pressure relief foam
4. Support foam
5. 5 zone performance foam
6. Cooling gel lumbar support gel
7. HD comfort foam
8. Foam encased 420 zone
9. HD performance based foam
10. Amish wood foundation

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Last edit: by TDI Hoo.

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 17 Mar 2013 22:56 #4

Hi TDI Hoo,

Thanks as always, Phoenix. We continue to look. Michelle at Bedcrafters once again is not a pleasant experience and cost is crazy high. Others may have had great experiences at Bedcrafters, but we and others have not.


This is an interesting comment to me and if you are comfortable expanding on it I would be grateful but I also understand if you aren't.

In my conversations with her she was clearly knowledgeable about mattresses and materials and she also told me that she is very close to the family that owns the factory. She also told me that not all the retailers may have all the information that many members of this forum would want to know and she would be happy to fill in any information gaps regardless of where they were buying but we didn't go into any pricing information and of course I wasn't in the market for a mattress so the context of the conversation would have been different from a consumer actually looking for a mattress.

"Crazy high" is never a good thing :)

No one knows weights or densities of the layers, but the price is $499 for Dr. Maas 600 queen or full versus $479 for full Classic Plush and $549 for the queen Classic Plush. Daughter says both are comfortable, with Dr. Maas a bit more plush.


I'm curious whether this is because the retailer doesn't want to take the time to find out or if the information isn't available to them. Either way I would be hesitant in making a "blind' purchase although when prices are lower the "risk" connected with it is lower as well. My comments are beside the layering you listed ...

1. Natural FR Rayon fiber: This is the typical fire barrier which is an inherent fiber rather than "chemicals"
2. Natural Silk/Wool fiber.: This is in the quilting or ticking and they are both good quality and breathable materials but they can also be listed in cases where the actual content of silk or wool are very low and more "label copy".
3. Pressure relief foam: This usually indicates soft polyfoam (sometimes memory foam) but the density / quality is missing as well as the layer thickness.
4. Support foam: This usually indicates firmer polyfoam but once again the density / quality and layer thickness is missing.
5. 5 zone performance foam: This is more polyfoam (possibly memory foam) that is zoned but also has thickness and density / quality information missing
6. Cooling gel lumbar support gel: This is what is usually referred to as a "belly band" which is a layer of foam in the middle area of the mattress closer to the springs to provide lumbar support. It is usually quite thin but density information is missing and its cooling benefits are questionable this deep in the mattress.
7. HD comfort foam: More polyfoam and HD often starts in the 1.5 lb range and could go up to the mid 2 range. Thickness and density is missing once again.
8. Foam encased 420 zone: this is an innerspring but they don't specify the type
9. HD performance based foam: More polyfoam ... possibly as a stabilization layer under the innerspring.
10. Amish wood foundation: These are typically good quality.

Overall ... I would tend to walk away without much more information about all the layering. Providing this is the job of the retailer and I don't think consumers should have to spend time tracking down the specs of a mattress. I have had several retailers tell me that Paramount itself is open to disclosing these specs so I would be interested in knowing whether the problem is with the retailer or with Paramount. Sometimes a manufacturer will disclose the layering of some of their mattresses and not others in which case I would limit my choices to the ones where this information is available.

The "odds" say that their mattresses are better quality/value than the major brands (and the amount of foam as well as the prices including a good quality foundation at least "point to" value) but even so I would be very hesitant to make any blind purchase where there is no way to know the quality or value of what you are buying. This is especially true when the layering is as complex as this mattress.

Unless you are able to find out the details ... I would personally lean towards the options on the list that are more open and transparent about their materials and components and where you know and don't have to guess whether they use good quality / value materials relative to their budget range.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 18 Mar 2013 16:35 #5

Here is the reply from an inquiry to Paramount:


Thank you for your interest in our Dr. Maas 600 pillow top. We are pretty transparent company with regards to our specs and have them prominently displayed on each bed. However, the foam density’s is proprietary information that we do not disclose for competitive reasons. I will tell you that our foams range from a 1.2 density to a 2.5 density depending on the product structure that we are building. Also you can rest assured that if you purchase the Dr. Maas 600 PT it is backed by a 15 year non prorated warranty against manufacture defects including sagging or body impressions over 1 ½ inches.

Sincerely,

Tom Burke
Key Account Manager

Not too good.

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Last edit: by TDI Hoo.

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 18 Mar 2013 16:53 #6

Hi TDI HOO,

That's unfortunate and seems to contradict the information I received from some of the retailers I talked with. That would also mean I would exclude any mattress that they made from consideration that contained more than an inch of memory foam or polyfoam where they didn't disclose the foam density. In some cases a manufacturer may make a mattress where they do include "partial" information such as memory foam density or the type of latex they use but if there is more than an inch or so of "unknown material" I would exclude it from consideration.

This "proprietary information" excuse is just nonsense in my book and unfortunately puts them in the same group as the larger manufacturers who say the same thing and refuse to provide a way for consumers to make meaningful comparisons. If a manufacturer refuses to disclose the quality of the materials they use then they don't deserve the business of any educated consumers IMO. While I do understand that some manufacturers may choose to withhold some information about their mattresses for proprietary reasons (such as comfort specs, some layer thickness information, certain construction details, or their suppliers) ... as soon as "proprietary" becomes the excuse to withhold quality information they have crossed the line into the group of manufacturers that I wouldn't consider as a reasonable purchase option. Their "range" of foam densities goes from very low quality to high quality and without knowing the specifics there is no way to know which grade of foam is in your mattress.

They could be so much better if they chose to be.

Thanks for sharing the reply to your email and "setting the record straight". Except for rare instances where all the layers of a specific mattress may be known in terms of quality (such as an all latex mattress made with no more than an inch of quilting polyfoam) ... I would suggest that they be be included in the group of manufacturers that should be avoided.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 18 Mar 2013 18:38 #7

Mr. Burke provided a bit more information:

Hello,
Below is some more information on the spec build of the bed. I hope this helps and answers your questions.


1. Natural FR Rayon fiber- This is our natural fire blocker. Its .8oz fill
2. Natural Silk/Wool fiber. – This is a silk and wool blended fiber .5oz fill
3. Pressure relief foam – This is in the quilting package and ¾ inch thick
4. Support foam – This is also in the quilt package and is ½ inch thick
5. 5 zone performance foam – This is in the pillow top and is 1 ½ thick
6. Cooling gel lumbar support gel – This is under the pillow top and is ½ thick
7. HD comfort foam – This is part of the foam encasement 1” thick
8. Foam encased 420 zone – This is a zoned coil unit using 13 gauge wire with additional border rod for extra edge strength. 6 ¾ height
9. HD performance based foam – This is also part of the foam encasement and it is on the bottom and 1” thick
10. Amish wood foundation – This is made by the Pennsylvania Amish and has multiple slats that is zoned in the center with 2x6 corner blocks for extra strength.

Thank you,

Tom Burke
Key Account Manager

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Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 18 Mar 2013 23:21 #8

Hi TDI HOO,

It's nice to see that Paramount at least provided the layer thicknesses but it's still missing the most important information which is the density of all the foams which is the one "spec" you would need to know most of all. I can understand keeping the "comfort specs" proprietary (the firmness of the foams or some part of the design that doesn't affect quality) but foam density is an "essential" spec for a consumer to know and diesn't need to be proprietary at all because it doesn't affect comfort (any density foam can be made either soft or firm).

1. Natural FR Rayon fiber- This is our natural fire blocker. Its .8oz fill Inherent rayon fire barriers are "good" compared to fire resistant foams or other chemicals that can be used to pass the 1633 fire regulations.

2. Natural Silk/Wool fiber. – This is a silk and wool blended fiber .5oz fill This is a good quality and breathable fiber ... especially if it isn't blended with other fibers like polyester.

3. Pressure relief foam – This is in the quilting package and ¾ inch thick: If this was the only layer of polyfoam or memory foam it wouldn't concern me because of how thin the layer is. I usually suggest that if the quilting layer is all the polyfoam or memory foam there is and it's in the range of an inch or so then knowing the density isn't as important (it's there more for "hand feel" and to keep the shape of the mattress). If this is only one of the polyfoam or memory foam layers though as in this case ... it's another story.

4. Support foam – This is also in the quilt package and is ½ inch thick Again if this and the layer above it was all there was ... it would still be in the range (around an inch or so) that would be acceptable for me without knowing the density.

5. 5 zone performance foam – This is in the pillow top and is 1 ½ thick: This layer puts the total polyfoam or memory foam thickness over the guideline I use which is where density information becomes important so you can identify the "weak link" of the mattress. This is where I would start walking past a mattress if the density specs weren't available.

6. Cooling gel lumbar support gel – This is under the pillow top and is ½ thick: Again ... this is a belly band and quite thin so I could look past knowing the specs of this in some cases but in combination with the quilting and other foam would take the "unknown foam" close to 2" even without the other non disclosed layers so I would want to know.

7. HD comfort foam – This is part of the foam encasement 1” thick HD could mean anything from 1.5 lb and up. I would want to know the density ... especially with the rest of the unknown foam and because there doesn't seem to be an insulator over the coils.

8. Foam encased 420 zone – This is a zoned coil unit using 13 gauge wire with additional border rod for extra edge strength. 6 ¾ height: This is pretty basic information and doesn't include the turns of the coil or the type but it's probably a Bonnell and it's a low gauge and strong so with a good insulator this would a good basic strong coil that was fine. Innersprings aren't typically the weak link of a mattress when there are thicker layers of foam above it. I would want to make sure that any foam encasement was at least 1.8 lbs as well

9. HD performance based foam – This is also part of the foam encasement and it is on the bottom and 1” thick: Again ... this could be anywhere from 1.5 lb and up. This layer is used as a stabilization layer and as a shock absorber for the springs to help protect them from sudden impact and taking a set.

10. Amish wood foundation – This is made by the Pennsylvania Amish and has multiple slats that is zoned in the center with 2x6 corner blocks for extra strength. Again ... I would consider this to be a suitable foundation.

The specs also don't include the insulator pad which is essential with a lower coil count mattress to prevent the foams from sinking in to the coils and even out the compression of the springs. You have a total of 3.75" of unknown foam in the upper layers (not counting the memory foam belly band) in a one sided mattress and it's unknown if there is an insulator pad.

Overall ... there are just too many unknowns and I would personally not consider this mattress when there are other good options available where you can know what you are buying.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 20 Jul 2013 18:35 #9

Phoenix,

Just a little follow up on this. We eventually did get the Paramount Dr. Maas 600 Pillow top for our 13 year old teenager. Turns out the price went down another $50, and it was just too good a deal to pass up, despite ours (and your) reservations about the unknown components in its layers. But my daughter is thoroughly pleased with it, and it is extremely comfortable, though I recognize it is only 4 months old. Additionally, there are no body impressions in the pillow top (YET). Will let you know how it goes after a year or so. The OMF Classic Plush was not plush enough for her.

Everyone can place their bets on how well and how long this mattress holds up, but sometimes personal preferences, especially those of a teenager, trump objective data, Phoenix's sound advice, and sometimes even price. I have my fingers crossed that this will hold up for 5 or more years until she heads off to college.

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Innerspring mattress for a teenager in Richmond, Va. 20 Jul 2013 19:55 #10

Hi TDIHoo,

Everyone can place their bets on how well and how long this mattress holds up, but sometimes personal preferences, especially those of a teenager, trump objective data, Phoenix's sound advice, and sometimes even price. I have my fingers crossed that this will hold up for 5 or more years until she heads off to college.


I think the odds are probably in your favor and in general they would tend to use higher quality materials than the larger manufacturers. It's unfortunate though that they don't provide the density information (or at least provide it selectively) because they are the type of manufacturer that I "want to like" but they make it more difficult. I think that part of this is that they used to be a King Koil licensee and that the culture that they are "used to" is not transparent. I completely understand that preferences in some cases can trump anything else and this just becomes part of each person's "personal value equation".

In the end it's like any decision and all the many factors involved shift the odds of long term success in one direction or another but with lighter weights and younger kids a mattress will tend to be more durable than if they were heavier.

If I was making a "blind" purchase I would tend to lean towards them as well vs much of the "blind" competition (the odds would be better) but its unfortunate that the unknowns even have to be there at all and I hope that at some point they choose to disclose more of the details that make it possible to make more objective decisions to go along with all the more subjective factors.

Change often comes slowly and incrementally in this industry.

Thanks for the update :)

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.
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