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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 30 Jan 2013 06:19 #1

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Hello Phoenix,
Wow! What a website. My head is spinning from so much info. Long story short: We purchased a typical locally made and purchased softly firm mattress a little over a year ago. We had sleep indents quickly on both sides of the bed (king). Dealer said the foam must have been bad and broke down. Local dealer gave us in store credit toward original purchase price and option to upgrade and pay the difference. So we upgraded. In less than 3 months we have sleep indents in the new mattress/breaking down in upgraded coil mattress. I have no idea on the specs of these mattresses. I had no idea the education I should have put myself through before purchasing them. Anway, local dealer is honoring the same option on this mattress and we have it narrowed down to the following two mattresses.

Novo Pure Nile Mattress Set. The description says it has 1020 bi-level pocket coil unit that features 2 coil height levels and firnesses, alternating in each row to create optimal support. It has EcoTex Extended Life Foam and Zoned Talalay Latex that creates a "plush and luxurious feel on surface of mattress." This is straight off the brochue they gave me. I'm leaning toward this mattress because it felt really comfortable to lay on in the store and the price is great - which we have already covered. My hesitation is that the most recent and short lived mattress was brand new to the market and "not proven" as the store employee pointed out. This mattress is in the same boat. It's a new product line for them so they don't have a lot of feed back, etc. '

Second mattress option: Pure Latex Bliss Balance: part of 3.0 Hybrid Collection. Pamphlet desrciption: Fast response combined with Talalay Latex with a pre-compressed and bonded polyfoam with no-= off-gassing. Firmest model, starts with Oeko-Tex Standard 100 certified bonded foam core mixed with Talalay Latex. Topped with 2 inches of Natural Talalay Latex containing ActiveFusion temperature control Gel. Overall height is 9 inches. Natural Wood foundation with set.

Husband is 5'10 250lbs. Has had both hips replaced and really likes this Pure latex bliss. Mostly back or stomach sleeper.. I'm 5"1 200lbs. Side and back sleeper. We aren't small people. From all the info I've read PLB gets a lot of mixed reviews. I'm also concerned about the latex softening too much or breaking down and being stuck with this mattress as it is a significant price increase. I also question the mattress topper issue. The toppers are so expensive. Is this something that most everyone has to consider and you can't just purchase a mattress that works for you? I wasn't even considering a topper with the coil.

We both tend to prefer something on the more firm side. Other things to consider. The coil has a 10 yr warranty and the pure latex has a 10 yr + 10 yr prorate. But now that I've been reading it sounds like warranties aren't actually something to consider so much in the purchase because things like the softening or break down of the comfort layer is considered normal wear and tear. After discussing both mattresses with the local store, they explained that there is always the off chance that the same sleep dents could show up in the coil "since it isn't proven." FYI, the two previous mattresses were both spring. This is the first time we have considered latex and this is the only one in our price range. I was leaning toward the coil because of cost and I liked the feeling better. Husband liked the latex. We are both open to either option. The only reason I think we haven't jumped on the coil is because of the two recent mattresses is just a year. We want to get something that will last for a while and be done with this :)

I'm sure I've probably left out a lot of needed info that might be more helpful to you. If you have questions, please let me know. Again, thank you for any thoughts you may have. I've spent hours searching previous posts and reading and feel more confused than ever. Looking for guidance.

Sincerely,
Kelsey
Oregon

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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 30 Jan 2013 08:04 #2

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Hi Countrygirl,

One of the most important "messages" of this site as you probably know with the reading you have done here is that no matter where you buy a mattress to always make sure that you know the details of all the layers in your mattress so you can verify the quality and durability of all the layers and identify any weak links in the mattress, especially in the upper comfort layers, which can lead to foam softening and the loss of comfort and support and soft spots under the heavier areas of the body especially like you have experienced. This is particularly true for people who are in a higher weight range where all materials will soften and break down more quickly. Post #1 here and the information it links to will give you the basic information you need to eliminate your worst options and focus on the better ones. It's probably the single most important post on the site and will help "cut through" the information overload that can sometimes happen in a site like this.

While i can't tell you which to choose between these two mattresses because the choice between a latex / polyfoam hybrid and a latex / innerspring hybrid would be a matter of personal preference ... I may be able to help you with how to choose.

The most important part of your choice would be to decide on the relative "value" of each and on which one best fits your personal "value equation" (see post #46 here ).

Novo Pure Nile Mattress Set. The description says it has 1020 bi-level pocket coil unit that features 2 coil height levels and firnesses, alternating in each row to create optimal support. It has EcoTex Extended Life Foam and Zoned Talalay Latex that creates a "plush and luxurious feel on surface of mattress." This is straight off the brochue they gave me. I'm leaning toward this mattress because it felt really comfortable to lay on in the store and the price is great - which we have already covered. My hesitation is that the most recent and short lived mattress was brand new to the market and "not proven" as the store employee pointed out. This mattress is in the same boat. It's a new product line for them so they don't have a lot of feed back, etc. '


As you will read in the post I linked ... it's very important to make sure you test specifically for pressure relief and for alignment when you are testing mattresses rather than the more subjective "feel" or "comfort" of a mattress because it will translate into a mattress that is much more suitable in the long term. The final piece of the puzzle no matter how well a mattress provides you with what I call PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and your Personal preferences) is to make sure you know the details of every layer or component because if there is a weak link in a mattress it can lead to the loss of the comfort and support that you experienced in the showroom much more quickly. For this mattress ... you would need to know the thickness and density of any polyfoam in the mattress (such as the EcoTex extended life foam). The latex is likely to be good quality but I would still want to know the type of latex (Talalay or Dunlop) and whether it was blended or 100% natural (with Talalay latex blended can be more durable particularly in the lower ILD's or softness levels while with Dunlop it's the other way around).

Second mattress option: Pure Latex Bliss Balance: part of 3.0 Hybrid Collection. Pamphlet desrciption: Fast response combined with Talalay Latex with a pre-compressed and bonded polyfoam with no-= off-gassing. Firmest model, starts with Oeko-Tex Standard 100 certified bonded foam core mixed with Talalay Latex. Topped with 2 inches of Natural Talalay Latex containing ActiveFusion temperature control Gel. Overall height is 9 inches. Natural Wood foundation with set.


I can save you the trouble of finding out the layering of this mattress because I have it. the layering is as follows ...

9" height
2" ActiveFUSION Fast Natural Talalay; This is blended Talalay latex with phase change gel added to help with temperature regulation. It is a high quality and durable material.
7" Bonded Foam/Latex: This is a blend of polyfoam and latex similar to carpet padding where pieces of each material are compressed and bonded together. it is also a very durable material.

This would be what is called a latex hybrid which is a combination of latex in the comfort layers and a polyfoam support layer (or in this case a type or latex/polyfoam blend). This mattress is on the lower end of their line because it only has 2" of latex but all the materials are good quality and durable. The latex comfort layer may be a little on the soft side but it's also thin so that the "feel" of the firmer support layer will come through more.

You can read a bit more about a latex innerspring hybrid (and how it compares to all latex) in post #2 here . You can also read more about a polyfoam / latex hybrid and how it compares to an all latex mattress in post #2 here . Generally a good quality innerspring will be more costly than a polyfoam suupport layer but in the case of the PLB the support layer is higher quality than "regular" polyfoam so the difference may not be as much although how each performs and feels to you would be my primary consideration.

Husband is 5'10 250lbs. Has had both hips replaced and really likes this Pure latex bliss. Mostly back or stomach sleeper.. I'm 5"1 200lbs. Side and back sleeper. We aren't small people. From all the info I've read PLB gets a lot of mixed reviews. I'm also concerned about the latex softening too much or breaking down and being stuck with this mattress as it is a significant price increase. I also question the mattress topper issue. The toppers are so expensive. Is this something that most everyone has to consider and you can't just purchase a mattress that works for you? I wasn't even considering a topper with the coil.


Latex is the most durable of all the foam materials (memory foam, polyfoam, and latex are the three different types of foam) but with your heavier weights it would be important to make sure that any foam layer wasn't too thick and/or soft or you could risk both alignment and durability. Firmer foams are generally more suitable than softer foams for heavier weights and the PLB toppers are the softest latex available and also among the most costly latex toppers so if I was going to add a latex topper I would probably look elsewhere (to find both firmer latex and better value).

Unfortunately there is probably better latex "value" available in your area than either Novopure or PLB (I'm not sure where you are but this would be true in most areas in Canada) but I also understand that you are locked in to the store you are working with so you will have to make the best choice out of what you have available.which means knowing every layer that is in both of your choices.

I'm sure I've probably left out a lot of needed info that might be more helpful to you. If you have questions, please let me know. Again, thank you for any thoughts you may have. I've spent hours searching previous posts and reading and feel more confused than ever. Looking for guidance.


Hopefully I've covered all your questions and helped with "how" to choose rather than "what" to choose (because only you can know which one is the best match for your needs and preferences). While I don't have any questions I'm certainly happy to answer any others that you may have :)

The next step is to find out the specifics of what is in the Novopure so you can make a more meaningful quality, value, and durability comparison between them.

Phoenix
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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 31 Jan 2013 23:12 #3

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Hi countrygirl,

When you are looking for a new mattress ... where you do your shopping can be more important at the beginning than trying to choose between mattresses. Connecting with experts can help you bypass the need to become one yourself to make the best possible choices.

I just realized you had signed your post with "Oregon" and depending on where in Oregon you are there are may be some very good options available to you.

If you happen to be in the Portland, OR area ... then you would have some great choices available including one of the members of this site. They are listed in post #2 here .

Post #4 here may help if you are near Medford.

Some other options or possibilities in various areas of Oregon are listed in post #2 here .

Phoenix
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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 01 Feb 2013 03:03 #4

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Hi Phoenix,
I'm in Bend. I am back to the drawing board. I went back to the dealer today. I've ruled out the coil w/ latex top. I laid on the hybrid for quite some time and it's the firmest one they have. I'm concerned that its too close to being at the "just right" firmness now, and as it softens up during the break in, then it would be too soft. I laid on a the all natural latex PLB that was supposed to be the firmest they have. It still didn't feel up to my liking for starting out firm enough.

I looked at one of their coil mattresses that are made by the dealer and have they have been selling them for years. This extra firm traditional mattress has the least amount of polyfoam I could get on a mattress from the dealer. I feel better that at least its "proven" a little bit and not a new product for them. I have been looking at on line prices for a good natural latex topper.

I've been currently shopping with The Mattress Factory (local). I don't want to rule them out but PLB is the only one they offer that isn't $7000.00. I was wondering if you knew of any other local dealers (Redmond or Bend preferably) that carry natural latex that might be a decent product. Or an I crazy to think I will find natural latex for less than $4000? The PLB firm all natural is $2700. I just want it to be MORE firm. Unless you have any thoughts on the softening. I was somewhat suprised that they didn't use dunlop in the core. The entire mattress is talalay. Do you have other posts you could reference discussing break down, break in, softening,etc.

It was my understanding that a lot of people who turn out to be unhappy with the latex after the initial softening during break in bought a product that wasn't firm enough to begin with. I haven't ruled out the prospect of an inner spring w/ a topper, but I know I wouldn't get nearly the life out of it as an all natural latex. And as I've previously experienced, polyfoam is almost impossible to find on an innerspring mattress, and breaks down SO easily. Good think you have warrantys, I guess,eh?

I want to thank you so much for all the information you provided. When I went back into the mattress dealer I felt much more comfortable asking questions and asking for any thoughts they have on the different products. The only thing I found frustrating is the lack of the ability on the part of the dealer to give detailed info on the context of mattresses sometimes. So I knew to immediatly run away from those products as "not an option." Again, thank you, thank you for all your help. Love the site!! I just hope we can come to a decision at some point and get back to sleeping on a comfortable, quality, mattress.

Regards,
Kelsey

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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 01 Feb 2013 05:11 #5

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Hi Countrygirl,

I'm in Bend. I am back to the drawing board. I went back to the dealer today. I've ruled out the coil w/ latex top. I laid on the hybrid for quite some time and it's the firmest one they have. I'm concerned that its too close to being at the "just right" firmness now, and as it softens up during the break in, then it would be too soft. I laid on a the all natural latex PLB that was supposed to be the firmest they have. It still didn't feel up to my liking for starting out firm enough.


Do you know which model of the PLB was the firmest they carry? They may not even carry the firmest version (the Pamper) which for most people would be quite firm. I should also mention that the "all natural" versions of the PLB which use 100% natural Talalay are a fair bit more expensive than the "natural" version of the PLB which use blended Talalay and the blend would also likely be more durable in the lower ILD's used in the comfort layers.

Latex also doesn't go through the same degree of initial or ongoing softening as either memory foam or polyfoam so you would be much safer buying a mattress that was close to what you needed without anticipating foam softening than you would if it used either memory foam or polyfoam in the upper layers.

I looked at one of their coil mattresses that are made by the dealer and have they have been selling them for years. This extra firm traditional mattress has the least amount of polyfoam I could get on a mattress from the dealer. I feel better that at least its "proven" a little bit and not a new product for them. I have been looking at on line prices for a good natural latex topper.


This could certainly be a good option and they use 1.8 lb polyfoam which is more durable than the polyfoam used by the major manufacturers and it's also 2 sided so this could be a very good base for a topper. Even a well made two sided mattress that uses higher density polyfoam in layers that aren't too thick and where you don't need a topper at all can last for a long time. Of course polyfoam isn't as durable as latex but it also has a much lower cost and can be very good value.

I've been currently shopping with The Mattress Factory (local). I don't want to rule them out but PLB is the only one they offer that isn't $7000.00. I was wondering if you knew of any other local dealers (Redmond or Bend preferably) that carry natural latex that might be a decent product. Or an I crazy to think I will find natural latex for less than $4000? The PLB firm all natural is $2700. I just want it to be MORE firm. Unless you have any thoughts on the softening. I was somewhat suprised that they didn't use dunlop in the core. The entire mattress is talalay.


I couldn't imagine paying $7000 for a latex mattress. What make are they carrying that costs that much? I use some of the members here that sell latex mattresses online (see post #21 here ) as a good "value reference". I would normally add about 20% to the price of an online manufacturer to get to what I would call equivalent value locally (because a local purchase is less risky) but of course each person can decide for themselves on the local "premium" that they would consider to be roughly equivalent. As you can see ... latex mattresses are available for under $2000 (depending on the size and amount of latex and other components in the mattress). Both Dunlop and Talalay can make a great support core (or comfort layer for that matter) although they have a different feel to them. This would be a matter of preference not a matter of better or worse.

Do you have other posts you could reference discussing break down, break in, softening,etc.


Post #2 here talks about the many factors involved in durability and post #2 here about the difference in aging and other durability factors between natural latex and synthetic latex.

All of these (NR, SBR, and blends) are superior to most other types of foam.

It was my understanding that a lot of people who turn out to be unhappy with the latex after the initial softening during break in bought a product that wasn't firm enough to begin with. I haven't ruled out the prospect of an inner spring w/ a topper, but I know I wouldn't get nearly the life out of it as an all natural latex. And as I've previously experienced, polyfoam is almost impossible to find on an innerspring mattress, and breaks down SO easily. Good think you have warrantys, I guess,eh?


I think you are right that foam softening isn't as big an issue with latex and that those that are unhappy with the softness of a latex mattress probably made an initial choice that used latex that has too thick or too soft comfort layers. An innerspring with latex in the comfort layers could be roughly as durable as an all latex mattress because the comfort layers are usually the weak link of a mattress. A latex topper on a suitable base mattress can also be a very durable choice although a topper will generally wear out a little faster than a similar layer inside a mattress.

I'm guessing also that you mean it's almost impossible NOT to find polyfoam in an innerspring mattress ... although with smaller manufacturers this would be much more common (no polyfoam in an innerspring mattress). I should also mention that in Talalay in lower ILD's in particular ... natural latex will not be as durable as a blend. Good quality polyfoam in the right design can also be a very durable material. It's the low density polyfoam or its use in layers that are too thick that is the bigger durability issue.

Warranties are also mostly meaningless because they don't cover the loss of comfort and support that comes from foam softening which is not considered a "defect". you can find more of my thoughts about warranties in the first part of post #174 here .

I don't have any more information about any other natural latex mattresses in the Bend area but If I have the chance I'll see if I can track down any other options ... although they may also be more expensive and blended Talalay may be a good direction to look as well (and may be easier to find).

Phoenix
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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 01 Feb 2013 06:56 #6

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Hi Phoenix,

Just for clarification, the higher end mattresses that I mentioned that are $7000ish are ceritied organic natural. I think this is a high selling point to the right kind of person. I don't want to make it sound like they sell ridiculously priced products. Actually, I went to the PLB website and I was pleasantly suprised that the Mattress Factory has great pricing compared to the website prices.

I did also want to say that the folks down at The Mattress Factory have been overall great to deal with and they do back up their products that we have had the issues with. I have spent a lot of time down there with them this week trying out all these different mattresses then asking them even more questions based on all the research I've been doing trying to find the best option for us. They have been patient and trying their best to help us find a product we will be happy with.

I did some looking online at the other local places. I may not have made the best decisions in the first two purchases for mattresses, but I don't know that I could have picked a better dealer. And I appreciate the fact that if they have problems with a product they aren't making at the factory they still work with you. Very good envirement. I haven't been to the other mattress places but a lof of the products I saw on the websites didn't have the best feedback. or are pushing comfort, comfort, comfort with literally NO info on product in the mattress.

I thank you for all your help and imput during this process. It has helped greatly. I'm hoping I can make a decision this weekend and soon be sleeping on a good mattress again. Maybe this will help other locals trying to find someone. Best of luck to all the people out there muddling through the mysterious world of mattress shopping.

Awesome site. I am going to tell anyone I know about it. Thanks again!

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Have to pick from two mattresses: Latex Hybrid or Coil 01 Feb 2013 07:41 #7

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Hi Countrygirl,

I would be very careful about what you believe when it comes to "certified organic latex". There is more about this in post #6 here . Many overpriced mattresses that "claim" to be "certified" use Talalay latex and there is no certified organic talalay latex in the world. In some cases they use certified organic covers and other components but the latex itself isn't certified organic. You can also find mattresses that use actual GOLS certified organic latex and certified organic cotton/wool quilted covers in the list of manufacturers I linked at significantly less than half the $7000 price you are mentioning.

Bear in mind too that the PLB (and most manufacturers) have inflated prices on their websites that nobody ever pays.

The PLB mattresses do use good quality materials and are "better than average" value compared to most larger manufacturers but they are also higher than many smaller manufacturers that make similar mattresses unless you are able to find a significant discount over their regular selling prices. I would certainly buy them over most of the mattresses that most consumers end up buying from major manufacturers. Value also has different meanings to different people and each person has their own " value equation " which includes the value of all the objective, subjective, and intangible factors that are part of any mattress purchase including the mattress along with the service and other benefits that come from dealing with a particular retailer or manufacturer. For the most part though, with some exceptions, the PLB's "commodity value" (their cost compared to other mattresses that use similar materials) is not in the "best" range.

I did also want to say that the folks down at The Mattress Factory have been overall great to deal with and they do back up their products that we have had the issues with. I have spent a lot of time down there with them this week trying out all these different mattresses then asking them even more questions based on all the research I've been doing trying to find the best option for us. They have been patient and trying their best to help us find a product we will be happy with.


I was also impressed in my conversations with them and they are certainly "good people" IMO. When I last talked with him (about 6 months ago) he was seriously thinking of making an all Dunlop latex mattress in addition to his latex/innerspring hybrid but it doesn't sound like that has happened yet.

I did some looking online at the other local places. I may not have made the best decisions in the first two purchases for mattresses, but I don't know that I could have picked a better dealer. And I appreciate the fact that if they have problems with a product they aren't making at the factory they still work with you. Very good envirement. I haven't been to the other mattress places but a lof of the products I saw on the websites didn't have the best feedback. or are pushing comfort, comfort, comfort with literally NO info on product in the mattress.


I completely agree with your sentiments here. One of the most reliable signs of a better retailer or manufacturer is their ability and willingness to disclose the quality details of all the layers in a mattress so that their customers can make meaningful comparisons and identify any weak links in a mattress in terms of durability.

As I've often mentioned ... comfort is what you feel when you first lay on a mattress and even the lowest quality materials can be comfortable in a showroom or when you first sleep on them. Support is what you feel when you wake up in the morning either with or without a back ache or discomfort. Durability is what you feel several years down the road and is all about how long the materials in the mattress maintains the comfort and support that was the reason you bought it.

I thank you for all your help and imput during this process. It has helped greatly. I'm hoping I can make a decision this weekend and soon be sleeping on a good mattress again. Maybe this will help other locals trying to find someone. Best of luck to all the people out there muddling through the mysterious world of mattress shopping.


I certainly appreciate all your feedback. As I mentioned I'll see if I have the chance to do a bit more looking for any other "possibilities" in the Bend area but I doubt that you will find a more knowledgeable retailer or manufacturer in the area than the one you are dealing with.

Phoenix
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