TOPIC:

Hello Phoenix,
Saw your mattress forum online so here I am.
Two years ago I invested in a Pure Latex Bliss Pamper (cal-king) mattress and 2" fast topper. I must have spent ten hours in the local store laying around on the various Bliss models & toppers, and this is what I settled on (and for a huge sum invested as well). When the set arrived home, I felt it was too firm, much more firm than in the store.

I decided to keep trying it at home, time went by, and here I am two years later and STILL not happy with this purchase. The set gives me nightly shoulder pain, numb arms, hip pain and knee pain (side sleeper). I have tried various "egg crate" toppers in counteless combinations with and without the 2" Bliss topper, nothing helps.

I should have used the 30-day "comfort exchange" but that was long ago. My question: Is there a way to save this investment and make this mattress softer with additional layers/toppers? Otherwise, the set is going to end up as a donation or in the local landfill.

Please advise your thoughts, and thank you!
B. Mark

Hi bmark,

While there is no way to know for certain "in theory" which layering combination (mattress and topper) will work best for you ... to have some sense of what your best options may be would require more information about your body type, sleeping positions, personal preferences, and more information about the specific symptoms that each combination of toppers has produced for you.

The Pamper (especially the old model that they sold) is very firm and only has a 1" comfort layer of 19 ILD latex over their firmest support core (40 ILD) so the thickness and softness of a topper will play a significant role in what works best for you.

Their toppers are also very very soft so with a 2" topper on top of a mattress that has that firm a support layer and that thin and soft a comfort layer ... you may still be "going through" the comfort layers and feeling too much of the firmness of the support layers below them.

So I think there may be a way to 'save" the investment yes ... or at least get close enough that you can be much more comfortable at least within the limitations of the design of the Pamper ... but it would be very helpful if you could provide much more specific information about your body type and sleeping positions ... and the more specific "symptoms" you have experienced with each combination of the mattress and various toppers you have tried so that they can be a reference point or "point to" what may work best for you.

Phoenix

Many Thanks for the reply!
I am 6 foot, 198 pounds and always sleep on my side. On this Latex Bliss Pamper mattress, the pressure builds up on my shoulder, hip, knee, and arm on the side I'm sleeping on. I wake up, turn over, fall back alseep, the pressure builds up in the areas on the new side, and I wake up again. This goes on three to four times a night. In addition to the 2" Latex Bliss topper, I've tried "hospital style" blue foam egg crate pads, in combination with and without the Latex Bliss topper along with various other inexpensive foam pads from various retail stores. Nothing seems to make this Pamper mattress any softer. I bought the mattress and topper in January 2011.

Today I visited the store where I bought the set, and they confirmed my topper is at least a 21 ILD version and could even be up to 28 ILD, and they suggested I get a new 14 ILD topper but in a 3" size. Oh, and all for another $600 dollars, which was "their lowest price they could go given the $1,039 retail price of the new topper and my circumstances." Not interested in spending any more money with this outfit.

But what I'm gathering from your reply, Phoenix, is that there is only a 1" comfort layer on this mattress. Is there some other foam product I could put at the surface of the mattress, say in a greater thickness like 4 or 5 inches to form a new substantial comfort layer, on which I would then place the 2" existing topper? I don't know about the topper, seems like I got better results without the 2" topper because I always felt it was uncomfortable, and now that the store has confirmed I have their most firm topper it seems like what I was feeling was right. So, in the event I ditch the Latex Bliss topper for other options, do you now have any further ideas?

Any help would be appreciated, I'm thinking of moving to the couch, which by the way, is where I take my daily nap since I do not sleep well on this mattress!!!

Best regards and thank you for your insight,
B.A. Mark

Hi bmark,

We need to take this step by step. Because I can't see or feel what you are feeling ... because there are so many variables between different people ... and because there isn't a 'formula" that can take height and weight and sleeping position information and turn it into a solution that is specific to any person ... the only thing that can help "from a distance" is to match a specific reference point of a specific mattress/topper combination (where all the details of the topper or toppers you are using is known exactly) with a specific set of symptoms and compare each combination in terms of what was better and what was worse compared to other combinations.

The first step is to identify the toppers you have tried (and which ones you still have available). I would need the thickness and the specific type of foam and the ILD (firmness softness level) that was in each one. This will either be memory foam (slow response), polyfoam (fast response), or latex (fast response). These are the three main types of foam.

I'm not sure that Pure latex Bliss even had a 21 ILD or a 28 ILD topper and most of them are much softer (like the one they were suggesting) which I wouldn't recommend. They come in either 2" or 3" versions with ether 14 ILD blended talalay (which is the one they were suggesting) or 15 ILD Talalay GL. Quite frankly all of these are too soft for most people IMO.

So you would need to confirm that the topper you have is actually 21 ILD (or find out what it is) so it can be used as a reference point. It may be an N2 (100% natural Talalay) which would be in that ILD area or it could be a Celsion topper. If you could phone Pure Latex Bliss and confirm that they even made a topper like this and do what you can to confirm the specifics of what you have it would be helpful. Their phone number is here (on the left under consumer care)

I would also want to know the thickness of the egg crate topper, the type of foam in it, whether you still have it, and any other information you have about it.

Any information about the other toppers or combinations you have tried would also be helpful.

What I would be looking for is a description of the differences between sleeping directly on the mattress (if you have) ... sleeping on the mattress with the latex topper you have, and sleeping on the mattress with the latex topper and another topper (like the egg crate) and the order they were layered in each combination (top to bottom). Each will feel different from the other combinations and to use these combinations as a reference point I would need to know the specific differences you felt with each combination and where you noticed the differences between them.

Post #2 here also has some guidelines for choosing a topper which may be useful.

In addition to all of this ... some information about mattresses that you have slept on that "worked" for you may also be helpful

There's a few blanks to fill in but once you have them I can get a better sense of the direction that may have the best odds of working for you.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,
Wow! That is a lot to gather but I will do so. I have been looking over your site in detail, man I wish I had seen it two years ago before I jumped into the Latex Bliss situation. I was unknowing of what I was getting into, and the information I have found here on just the last two evenings is more valuable than I can put into words! Also, please accept my heartfelt thanks for your personal responses to my posts, as I have discovered you are one busy admin with lots to respond to and only so many hours in a day. I truly appreciate it, and I'm certain everyone else who has strolled around this site does too.

I will put together a detailed response to your questions tomorrow. In the meantime, you mentioned any other mattresses I slept well on. There is one. The few months before I bought the Latex Bliss product, we had been staying at a La Quinta Inn near a family member who was ill. Our regular visits took us to this hotel which was right around the corner from our loved one, and we visited on numerous weekends during this time. I could not believe the bed in the hotel, I must have commented on it a thousand times. I even pulled off the sheets to write down the model number of the mattress & foundation. I searched the internet and turned up a quick reference to "Bedding Concierge," a service that markets not only the La Quinta bed but other major and even luxury hotels such as the "W." No doubt you are familiar with this service. The La Quinta mattress is a Simmons Collectors Edition Super Pillow Top. I truly slept with absolutely no pressure points, and slept well. The service is still at this time in business, although the price of the Simmons mattress at the La Quinta has gone up since I first inquired from $1249 to $1549 with foundation.

Why I didn't buy this Simmons product, after sleeping on it I will never be able to figure out. It is a mystery to me, but is perhaps a giant mistake now. I didn't trust my gut, nor my actual experience in sleeping on this mattress in the hotel on numerous occassions (and who hasn't done that??). I am the King of this situation for sure!!

When it came time for me to purchase a new mattress, I should have trusted my gut and just bought the La Quinta/Simmons bed. But I had slept on foam & latex in an earlier part of my life, and remembered it was superior (at the time). Having grown much older since then, perhaps it was just the memory of the latex sleep and not the actuality or reality of my needs at my ripe age of 55. So I decided to bypass the La Quinta bed, even knowing how well I had slept on it for several nights, blindly accepting that my past memory would guide me to the right latex product. What a mistake!! I had also considered putting together a component latex mattress with a place in San Francisco, I think called Foam Order. Alas, I went for the Latex Bliss, and I must have spent ten or more hours at the local store laying on the various models and finally settled on the Pamper. Then it arrived at my home and was not at all like what I had exerienced in the store (and who has not experienced anything like that before?!!).

The resulting situation is what led me to your site, and why I am trying to figure out a way to save the investment in the Latex Bliss product, in lieu of spending another $1549 on the La Quinta Simmons. But I will if I have to!

Thanks again and will be back in touch.
B.A. Mark

Hi bmark,

Why I didn't buy this Simmons product, after sleeping on it I will never be able to figure out. It is a mystery to me, but is perhaps a giant mistake now. I didn't trust my gut, nor my actual experience in sleeping on this mattress in the hotel on numerous occassions (and who hasn't done that??). I am the King of this situation for sure!!

Believe it or not ... while this is helpful it's probably a good thing you didn't buy it.

Hotels don't just use just the mattress itself but will also usually have a bedding package of a mattress pad or topper that is part of the feel of the sleeping system. These can improve the durability of the comfort layers and are easily replaceable and this way the mattress can last longer (and they aren't used every night as well). Most people that buy these are very disappointed (they usually just buy the mattress) and the hotel mattresses ... especially the pillowtops ... use thick layers of low quality polyfoam in the comfort layers and the "feel" that you liked so much in the hotel won't last very long before the lower quality polyfoam starts to soften. These are a durability problem waiting to happen ... and they are even more overpriced than the same or similar Simmons "consumer" mattresses available at most stores.

It does however give a piece of information that can be useful (thicker layers of soft foam work well for you vs the very firm Pamper which is very different. Even the cheapest foams can feel good in the short term in a hotel or a showroom. It would be nice to know the layering of the mattress but just the fact that it was a Simmons pillowtop will be somewhat helpful.

If you are in the San Francisco area ... one of our members Bay Bed is in Santa Cruz which is a bit of a drive but they make a pocket coil mattress (like the Simmons) with various different pocket coils and with latex comfort layers (which are much more durable) in various thicknesses and will custom build them to your preferences. They would also be a great choice and would probably have been less than the Pamper.

I'm looking forward to filling some of the information gaps so we have some reference points to figure out where to go next.

Phoenix

Having tested a lot of mattresses and stacking up my own system form Sleepez I see a common trend:

People buy down the line Pamper for it's firmness and I would imagine cost. The Pamper comes back repeatedly with complaints here so I never even bothered trying one.

People seem to buy low ILD toppers and I think this often goes the wrong direction. I think they just crush right through to the firm core and the soft topper provides next to no support.


I personally liked the PLB Nutrition so that is what I tried to emulate. I built Med/soft/ex firm in my layering and it's pretty good, but may actually need to swap out the Ex firm for firm to soften just a bit.


If I had a Pamper I think I'd be trying a 3" medium ILD on top.

Hi TD-Max,

People seem to buy low ILD toppers and I think this often goes the wrong direction. I think they just crush right through to the firm core and the soft topper provides next to no support.

I think you hit the nail on the head here ... and this is also a cultural issue based on what people in North America have become used to sleeping on (and what their backs have adjusted to as well). The era of soft pillowtops has created lots of back issues (and lots of durability issues) IMO. This is what I call a "learned posture" and it an be difficult to correct. It's like someone that gets used to having bad posture such as hunched shoulders or slouching and it can be difficult to correct it without discomfort or even some pain during the transition period from bad posture to good posture. There's more about "learned" posture in post #7 here .

I personally liked the PLB Nutrition so that is what I tried to emulate. I built Med/soft/ex firm in my layering and it's pretty good, but may actually need to swap out the Ex firm for firm to soften just a bit.

When the PLB mattresses first came out their initial videos (which are no longer available) implied that they would be doing this and I think I mentioned before that I was impressed. this layering became "lost in the shuffle" of incorrect specs that were published on the internet. It's not so common (outside of firmer quilting layers which are a form of dominating layers which are more often used) that you see dominating layers in a mattress and it has a unique feel and performance that many people like. It's interesting to me that you have caught on to this and designed your mattress around it. It's certainly not a "recommended" construction by many foam producers who tend to suggest progressive layering but I think it has a valuable place.

In a sense this is similar to some innersprings which have a dual spring rate (a softer section and a firmer section) and I think that the performance and "feel" that can come from this with the foam layered on top of this type of spring is part of the reason why some people do better with innersprings. There is more about dominating layers and how they may compare to innersprings in post #2 here and post #16 here .

Thanks for your comments ... and you bring up many interesting issues in your posts

Phoenix

Finally having a chance to describe my toppers I've tried with my Pamper. And I'm glad I didn't buy that Simmons La Quinta mattress, which by the way, was a 525 coil mattress but no one could tell me about the comfort layering. So thanks to you Phoenix for your knowledge and thoughts on that one!

Here are some ruminations on my various topper experiments, none of which have worked and none of which cost anything of great value either (you get what you pay for...sometimes).

A: 2" Pure Latex Bliss 19ILD topper (verified ILD with factory)
B: 2" Duro-Med hospital type egg crate (blue foam)
C: 1.5" Zoned poly foam topper from Bed-Bath-Beyond
D: 1" cheap foam "pad" from Walmart.

Scenarios, with layers listed from the mattress-up, again sleeping always on my side:

1) I have tried all of these on the Pamper at once, 2" PLB topper/2" Duro-Med egg crate/1.5" zoned poly foam/1" cheap foam pad. And still didn't get comfortable pressure relief and ended up with sore back due to poor spinal alignment (yard stick trick).

2)Tried the PLB 2" topper alone, no pressure relief whatsoever, very painful in shoulders & hips.

3)Tried PLB 2" w/Duro-Med egg crate, not much difference from #1, little pressure relief and bad spinal alignment

4)Tried 1.5" zoned pad and 1" cheap pad together, no sore back but no pressure relief.

5)Tried 2" Duro-Med egg crate alone, got some good spinal alignement, and truth is if the pressure relief was better I'd be OK with this step. But eventually during the night, the pressure builds up on the shoulders and causes me to wake up and turn over. Uggh!

6)Tried 2" Duro-Med egg crate and 1.5" zoned pad and 1" cheap Walmart pad together, got some OK pressure relief and some spianl alignment problems, but was slightly OK until the two top foam pads became compressed.

7)Back to the Duro-Med egg crate again, good spinal alignment and initial feel is good, but shoulder/hip pressure builds up. I do like the firmness of this set-up, but got to get rid of the pressure!

So that is about it, when I spoke to the Pure Latex Bliss factory customer service person, they were very understanding of my plight and suggested I try the 3" 14ILD topper, which I explained their local sales person had recommended same. They said a facroty rep would be contacting me on Monday to discuss it all, and were sympathetic to my situation and my dislike for their Pamper product. And they admitted their new Pamper models have 2" of comfort layer. They also said the Pamper is still their top seller. But very interesting their new Pamper model has 2" of comfort layer!

Many thanks to you Phoenix for your help and to the others who have weighed in on this subject. I am disovering I got taken in by the Pure Latex "Bliss" and the Pamper fever!

All the best and still looking for a good night's sleep,
B.A.Mark

Hi bmark,

Thanks for the more detailed feedback about your experiences. A few comments ...

First of all ... the Duro-Med topper uses 3 lb foam which is high quality and which would be softer than it's ILD rating because of the convoluting but then get more rapidly firmer as you compressed into the non convoluted part of the topper. Unfortunately they don't provide the ILD but it would be reasonable to think it was firmer than the 19 ILD Talalay. This is much higher quality and density than the other two polyfoam toppers you have. It would act relatively similar to latex in terms of how supportive it was (how quickly it became firmer with compression) although it may start off firmer than the latex as well.

1) I have tried all of these on the Pamper at once, 2" PLB topper/2" Duro-Med egg crate/1.5" zoned poly foam/1" cheap foam pad. And still didn't get comfortable pressure relief and ended up with sore back due to poor spinal alignment (yard stick trick).

Quite frankly this one has me completely baffled. If you were indeed experiencing actual pressure issues on this combination then my "best" suggestion would be that you are very far out of the "norm" because I can't imagine that with comfort layers this thick and soft (a total of 7.5" made up of 1" 19 ILD latex in the Pamper, an additional 2" of 19 ILD latex, the 2" Duromed and then another 2.5" of softer polyfoam toppers) that the vast majority of people would have any pressure points. I also can't imagine that most people also wouldn't have alignment issues with this combination. What I suspect may be happening is that when you are on your side that your joints are stretching beyond their neutral alignment which is causing joint discomfort which may be mimicking pressure issues (such as the discomfort some people will feel if they stand straight and force their hips to move to the side as far as they can). It may be helpful if you let me know where you were experiencing any "symptoms" from this layering but if this really was causing pressure issues then my best suggestion would be to throw away any "theory at a distance" and to personally test mattresses that had known layering until you found one that provided you with good pressure relief and then use that as a "model" for what to do next. The good news is that the other layering you tested is more indicative of what may work for you than this one and have a more consistent pattern.

2)Tried the PLB 2" topper alone, no pressure relief whatsoever, very painful in shoulders & hips.

This makes a little more sense because with 3" of 19 ILD latex as your comfort layer (2" topper + Pamper 1")over the very firm 40 ILD core of the Pamper it still may not have been enough to isolate you from the feel of the firmer layers below it.

3)Tried PLB 2" w/Duro-Med egg crate, not much difference from #1, little pressure relief and bad spinal alignment

This also seems to indicate an issue that is not pressure related because with 5" of soft foam over the support core "in theory" this would also be thick and soft enough to relieve pressure points and once again the discomfort and poor alignment could be coming from alignment issues both in your spine and in your joints.

4)Tried 1.5" zoned pad and 1" cheap pad together, no sore back but no pressure relief.

This would also make sense to me because with relatively thinner comfort layers (3.5") you would be closer to the support core but because they are softer this too may not be enough to isolate you from the firmness of the support core in the mattress (it's thicker than #2 but the comfort layers are also softer and have a lower support factor (then don't get firmer as fast aslatex) so you may well be "going through" these as well.

5)Tried 2" Duro-Med egg crate alone, got some good spinal alignment, and truth is if the pressure relief was better I'd be OK with this step. But eventually during the night, the pressure builds up on the shoulders and causes me to wake up and turn over. Uggh!

Similar comments to #4 and #2. The Duromed is higher quality than the other two foam layers (and likely firmer as well) and is likely providing you with reasonable alignment but still not enough for good pressure relief (this one has a 3' comfort layer)

6)Tried 2" Duro-Med egg crate and 1.5" zoned pad and 1" cheap Walmart pad together, got some OK pressure relief and some spianl alignment problems, but was slightly OK until the two top foam pads became compressed.

Again this seems to confirm the comments about the other options (except #1). It's hard to guess which one this would be most similar to (it has 5.5" in the combination comfort layers) because I don't know the exact details of all the polyfoam layers but it's would be a little more pressure relieving than #5 with the extra polyfoam on top and a little more likely to produce alignment issues because of the extra thickness.

7)Back to the Duro-Med egg crate again, good spinal alignment and initial feel is good, but shoulder/hip pressure builds up. I do like the firmness of this set-up, but got to get rid of the pressure!

Again ... this would be a 3' comfort layer similar to #2 (but the Duromed is likely firmer than the latex) and of course the same as #5.

So with the exception of #1 ... and guessing a bit at the specifics of some of the layers ... most of this makes sense and seems to indicate a "critical zone" or thickness a little more than 3" (say 3.5 - 4") that uses higher quality foam that gets firmer fast enough and has a slightly higher ILD than the cheaper polyfoam toppers you were using.

Do you still have the Duromed topper and is it still in good condition?

If it is ... I would try it on the Pamper and then add the 19 ILD topper on top of this. This would give you a comfort layer of 5" which would be a little on the thick side but it would put the firmer Duromed deeper in the combination and eliminate the cheaper polyfoam toppers.

It would be nice to have 3" of the better quality toppers to play with but it's either 2" or 4" it seems. This combination though is the only one you haven't listed that could provide some meaningful information to the picture. It may also be worth testing it in reverse order to see if there is any difference.

I'm also looking forward to the suggestions of the PLB rep.

Have you tested any of the PLB mattresses by themselves without any topper and is there one that seems to work best for you and doesn't give you a "hint" of familiar "symptoms" in shorter term testing? This may be helpful as well.

Overall I think that the comfort layer thickness that would likely work best for you is in the range of 3.5 - 4" (as much as I dislike being this specific with "theory at a distance" but the trick will be to make sure that all of this is good quality and the right firmness (and again it would be nice to know the specifics of the Duromed).

One step at a time using what you have available ... and if you do decide to give the latex and Duromed topper a try together ... I would give each combination (order of layering) a few days each to make sure that your feedback and experience was more of a pattern than an anomaly.

I would also have suggested the latex topper or the Duromed topper with just the 1.5" zoned topper which would be a little thinner and softer and put you closer to the support layers but your comments indicate that it has compressed already so it may not provide meaningful feedback. I'll leave this up to your best judgement (after the other two options have provided some feedback).

The end result of all of this will hopefully point to a more "permanent" solution that doesn't involve such complex variations where some of the important specs that could be used as a reference are missing.

Phoenix