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Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 10 Dec 2012 18:40 #16

  • richardb
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Hi richardb,

I don't think highly at all of airbeds and in general I think they are a waste of money. You can see why in this article .

If you did decide to buy one, they are widely available in most areas of the country and I would buy the one that provided the best possible PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences) in your local testing.

While I don't think particularly highly of any of them ... Sleep Number is probably among the worst of a poor value group. They are like the "Tempurpedics" of the airbeds with the highest profit margins and the most advertising but the worst value.

Phoenix

I have not bought a sleep number bed.
I guess I am out of choices with nothing left to choose from
1. Sealy serta simmons are out since they dont disclose what there mattresses have
2. tried tempurpedics - did not work
3. Tried talalay latex bed - slipped off the surface. dont like the feeling
4. Tried a all natural dunlop mattress not the costco one- worst possible feeling with the pushback coming in 1minute after laying on bed. Cried all night from pain
5. now sleep number is out
I got nothing to look to.

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Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 10 Dec 2012 21:04 #17

  • phoenix
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Hi richardb,

Sometimes who you buy from can be more important than the mattress that you buy. If they have the knowledge and experience to work with their more "challenging" customers and circumstances ... they can be the most important part of finding a mattress that suits your needs. It may even be surprising what is in the mattress that ends up "matching" what you need because there are so many variations of each type of mattress and each of them may be suitable for one person and not another.

Up till now... you have been more focused on the type of mattress to buy rather than the manufacturer or retailer you are working with. Your experience with the Costco mattress and another Dunlop latex mattress is an example of this where one appeared to work well but the other didn't yet they were both the same material.

So if I was in your shoes ... I would spend some time on the phone with some of the options you have available locally in the Dallas Ft Worth area (listed in post #4 here ) and then work with the three or four that seemed to best understand what you were looking for and your criteria. I would choose the best "fit" at each of these and then narrow your choices down between them to the one that is the most suitable for you based on your personal "value equation".

I think that if you focus more on who you are working with and less on the "type" of mattress that may (or may not) work best for you that you will end up with the best possible choice and you can finally get the mattress that will provide the quality of sleep and rest that you have been looking for.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 10 Dec 2012 21:32 #18

  • mister
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Phoenix you forgot about me :(

Why did you pick Jameson and Dutchcraft over the other manufacturers; are any others good to look at in my area as well? Did you find any more places here locally to update that list with?

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Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 10 Dec 2012 21:59 #19

  • phoenix
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Hi mister,

I certainly haven't forgotten about you :).

As a matter of fact the (so far) about 10 + hours of research and conversations that have gone into gathering information to update the Nashville area over the last two days have been the single biggest block of time that I've spent on anything since your post.

The short answer to your question about both Jamison and Dutchcraft would be the same as many other smaller manufacturers ... they tend to use higher quality materials and are more transparent about what they use than many other manufacturers. They are both privately owned and more responsive to their local customers and retailers than many other manufacturers.

Of course the value of any of their mattresses and your ability to find out the materials that were in them depends on the retailer you work with ... but they have good potential and the odds of finding better quality and value with these types of manufacturers that "fit the profile" of the better manufacturers are much higher than with more mainstream brands.

More to come ... probably later tonight or tomorrow ... about the results of my Nashville research so far.

One head with only 2 hands can only juggle so many balls ... and I haven't figured out yet how to add more hours to the day :)

Phoenix
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Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 11 Dec 2012 04:50 #20

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Hi Mister,

Some of the results of my Nashville research are now listed in the updated post #7 here . They are the results of looking at over 40 different retailers in about a 40 mile radius (I don't think I missed any but of course it's possible I did) and conversations with several of them so far.

As I gather more information I'll add more updates to the information there.

Of course your "in person" feedback on any of the merchants listed would also be valuable.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 11 Dec 2012 21:37 #21

  • mister
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Thank you soooooooo much Phoenix for all the work you put in; I was never expecting all that. Just figured you would poke around for a bit to see if the scene around here changed not do all this.

I've read over what you researched and just have some notes. I heard that Corsicana was not a great mattress beyond the throwaway mattress price range and to stay away from them which I see that a few of the retailers carry. This may be just trash talk and all but I also heard from the Mattresses Unlimited people that are joint owned with Mattress Warehouse and Sleep Outfitters that the Mattress Warehouse of Nashville (Darryl) was NOT affiliated with them, just took the name and logo and sells not great quality stuff. On their website it looks like he sells mainly Corsicana (And looks like only $500 and under mattresses) and stuff that just screams 'Made in China' (When the beds are named PF 1081 and all that it sounds like an assembly line mattress not something built with quality).

I spoke with Mattress Express and they seemed very helpful; I asked about the Revive model since he carries Southerland and he confirmed what you said in your article that companies will not sell the same model to different retailers that are within a certain distance of each other to prevent undercutting and price comparison but he said he would ask about the Revive anyway and see what they say.

I still want to Try the Jamison and Dutchcraft mattresses before making a decision though so I'll keep looking. Thanks again.

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Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 11 Dec 2012 22:02 #22

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Hi mister,

Corsicana is generally considered to be a promotional or "value" mattress brand and is typically in the lower price ranges.

Having said that ... any mattress is only as good as the quality of the materials that goes into it and Corsicana uses similar materials to competitors that are higher priced and often represents better value in the price ranges they sell in. I certainly wouldn't call them the best quality either but they are also not in the price ranges of the best quality mattresses. They are also quite responsive to their retailers and will take a bed back without making their retailers jump through hoops which in turn means the retailers can be more responsive to their customer's issues. Some retailers have better access to the details of the materials in the Corsicana mattresses (or at least some of them) which means that these are the ones I would look at so you can make meaningful comparisons with other mattresses.

As you mentioned ... Darryl at mattresswarehousenashville is not affiliated with any of the other Mattress Warehouses. He currently carries Corsicana on the floor because in the lower budget ranges that he deals with he considers these to be among the better values but he plans to have his own mattresses on the floor that use better quality materials than the Corsicana within about 60 days ... and he also told me he will be fully transparent about the materials he uses.

It's easy to say anything about a competitor. For me ... the specific details about any mattresses they carry along with the knowledge, quality, value, and service of the merchant is the best way to make meaningful comparisons. Everything else is just opinions ... and often "trash talk".

As a side note ... almost all mainstream mattresses are built on an "assembly line" of some sort. Bench crafted or hand built mattresses are typically much higher priced. Corsicana mattresses also have "other" names as well.

Looking inside a mattress at the materials and components and making meaningful comparisons based on these bypasses all the opinions :)

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 06 Jan 2013 02:54 #23

  • mister
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Hey Phoenix,

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you; after I made a realization that I would have to start all over searching for a new mattress I burned out and then the holidays came but I'm back up now ;)

I want to thank you again for all the hard work you put into the research for the Nashville area and I put it to good use. I narrowed down the retailers/brands based on your list and went to a few places and I think I have what I'm looking for; just would like your take on it from a technical standpoint to say yay or nay (I know it's up to me for the 'feel' of it but you are the details guru so...) I'll spare the story and just give you the specs:

Dutch Craft Dr. J's Spinal Health Collection - Embrace model (Queen)

As best I could tell, this is a "Private Label" Version of Dutch Craft's Paradise Gel based on composition and similar specs. This mattress was created in cooperation with a local Chiropractor in Lebanon, TN and as a private label sold only to that store, I could not get a lot of the gritty details of the foams beyond some density and other info but since you trust this company and I've heard a lot of good things about them, I wasn't too perturbed by this. From the websites of the maker and retailer, and brochures and retail staff I've gleaned all the info I could at the time.


Comfort Layers:
2" of "High Density" Chiro Cool Gel (Unknown Density/ILD) (Cooling gel mixed with visco-elastic foam; process used unknown)
2" of 5 lbs. Soy-Based Memory Foam (Unknown ILD)

Support Layer:
7" Soy-Based Preserve High Density HR Foam Core (I read on the retailer's site that the core has a 2.3 lbs. density but couldn't confirm this with Dutch Craft / Unknown ILD)

Foundation:
Poplar Hardwood (I thought I remember reading an article on this site or somewhere else, or maybe you told me, that the welded semi-rigid wire foundations were better than the wood slatted ones for memory foam but in any case, this is the one it's coming with; I saw a picture of it on the Dutch Craft site and it's an understatement to say they overbuild them; it looks like a tank :lol: )

Warranty:
20 year non-prorated


I am slightly concerned about the soy based foams (as I haven't even heard of them before) and if they would breakdown faster or have other issues that petrochemical-based poly foam types don't have but I guess I can be a pioneer :P (I suppose a good side effect of using soy foams is less offgassing/healthier sleeping enviornment). But other than that, the bed felt very nice; proper comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment. Do you happen to know or could find out anything about these soy foams used especially the Preserve HR core? How it stacks up against CertiPUR-US or other high end foams?

Another thing I was mildly concerned with was the 4" comfort layer (Thicker than the bed I'm having issues with now) but the foams are pretty firm and even when laying on my stomach, pulling my lower legs up (which usually forces your lumbar into the swayback position) my stomach and back stayed flat. And on my side it sank enough to not hurt my shoulder but didn't put me out of alignment.

I tested a lot of the Jamison models as you suggested since those two companies were the most recommended and I found some I liked, but even the highest end GelComfort/JGels (Oceania and Pacifica) used lower density, convoluted comfort layer foams (which is a shame since everyone talks up the 7" High Resiliency Marriott Core) and were charging close to $2000 (And latex is a little too springy for my tastes but I tried those models as well) so I decided to try out the Dutch Craft and here I am.

Anywho, sorry for the long post just wanted you to have as much info as possible to evaluate. Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

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Last edit: by mister.

Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 06 Jan 2013 05:37 #24

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Hi mister,

I am slightly concerned about the soy based foams (as I haven't even heard of them before) and if they would breakdown faster or have other issues that petrochemical-based poly foam types don't have but I guess I can be a pioneer :P (I suppose a good side effect of using soy foams is less offgassing/healthier sleeping enviornment). But other than that, the bed felt very nice; proper comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment. Do you happen to know or could find out anything about these soy foams used especially the Preserve HR core? How it stacks up against CertiPUR-US or other high end foams?


First to your question about the "so called" soy based foams which are as much about greeenwashing as anything else. You can find lots more references to them with a forum search on soy based polyol but the essence of most of the posts are that they are just polyurethane foams where a small percentage of one of the two main petrochemicals (the polyol) in the foam has been replaced with a polyol made from chemically altered soy oil. Almost every manufacturer makes a version of it and they are a well established technology and are directly comparable to regular polyfoam (meaning density comparisons are the most relevant quality comparison). They may be a small step in a more sustainable direction but they are certainly not "green" or even safer or less offgassing than regular petrochemical foams and soy itself is not a green crop by any stretch of the imagination (almost all soy is GMO and it is also a primary cause of Brazilian rain forest deforestation). The foams made by Hickory Springs are CertiPur certified* .
ADMIN NOTE: *Removed 404 link|Archived Footprint: certipur.us/pages/for-industry/find-a-foam-supplier/

Your mattress specs look good.

The gel memory foam is likely 4 lbs which is pretty much the average for gel memory foams (although this does vary) and even if it is a lower quality version of gel (which it probably isn't) ... being only 2" it will likely be fine. The gel gives the memory foam a higher compression modulus which means it gets firmer a little faster with compression and is a little less likely to sink in deeper and deeper over the course of the night (memory foam gets softer with heat, humidity, and time).

5 lb memory foam (soy based or otherwise) is a good quality material and both durable and probably firmer than lower density memory foams (although density and foam firmness are not necessarily connected) so this in combination with the gel memory foam is probably the reason why it gives you good alignment.

2.3 lb polyfoam is also a high quality material and a very good support material (this would be similar in quality to Tempurpedic and other higher quality memory foam mattresses).

The foundation also sounds great. I'm not one who would say that the wire grid foundations are necessarily better or worse than wood slats for a memory foam mattress because it would depend on the strength, rigidity, and supportive surface of either type which can vary. If anything I would tend to prefer wood foundations. I took a look on their site and I can see what you mean about it being built like a tank :)

As far as the comfort specs (such as ILD) these are not important or really relevant when you are actually testing a mattress because your body will tell you more than the ILD specs in terms of what is soft or firm... especially with memory foam where ILD specs can be very misleading.

Based on your testing ... it sounds to me like your mattress uses relatively firm memory foam with a good compression modulus and as long as your testing was for long enough to warm up the memory foam somewhat and the initial softening period doesn't soften it too much (their experience with their mattresses can give you a good estimate of this) ... things will likely be fine.

If you are happy with the price you are paying ... it sounds to me like you have found a good choice.

Phoenix
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Re: Exchanging for a new mattress 06 Jan 2013 18:59 #25

  • mister
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Thanks for the info on the soy foams, I read through that search results link you gave and got some good info.

So Hickory Springs makes all the foams for Dutch Craft (For that model at least); nice to know where they are coming from. Not sure why Dutch Craft wouldn't want to put the CertiPUR-US seal on its website somewhere or on the information brochure as I was looking for that but if the foam supplier is certified then by default they would be. Just seems to me an easy selling point to complete the process to be listed on the CertiPUR-US site. Restonic is the only one out of the four local wholesalers you gave me in that list that is certified.

For the cooling gel layer, are they all pretty much temperature regulating or just keep cooling you? I'm wondering this because some beds are advertised as regulating temperature and some say they just cool. From what I know about heat conduction in school long ago, the gel could only absorb so much of my body heat before it roughly equalizes with it, and as my temp goes down during deep sleep, it gives back some of that stored heat in an attempt to keep that balance (if it hasn't dissipated out of the mattress). As a side note, I thought the body lowering its temperature during deep sleep is needed to stay in deep sleep so wouldn't the gel be hurting that process by warming/regulating my body thus counteracting what all these high end beds say they do by keeping you in the later sleep cycle longer so you feel better?

I ask all that because of some beds I didn't look at (Namely Restonic because the only dealer was somewhat of a drive away) says they use Outlast material and TempaGel that "Regulates" temperature and not just cool you. Just want to know basically if this is marketing or if there is some truth and real differential in gel properties. I think the Outlast material is just fabric, not in a layer in the mattress but in the ticking; I noticed the Sealy Optimum uses Outlast as well but we won't go there :ohmy:

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