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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... what's the buzz 21 Nov 2011 02:43 #161

  • phoenix
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Hi Moose0721,

While a appreciate your quick replies, you are beating around the bush. I asked given your extensive knowledge what the density would be of the comfort layers. You still haven't provided that info to myself or the other readers.


I'm not sure exactly which bush you believe I am beating around or why you believe I would even want to. I guess I assumed you had read the beginning of this thread (specifically the first 6 posts) where I posted this information and how I arrived at my estimate of the densities in the iComfort mattresses. The early part of this thread also mentions that the gel memory foam itself is not unique to Serta but that Serta was using a higher density than others like the Sleep Innovations novaform gel memory foam. I would also think that it would be up to Serta to post information about the materials they used rather than having people like me or others try to "estimate" them based on the limited information that was available.

I also assumed that you had read the information on my site that suggested that the very fact that a mattress manufacturer is not transparent about the materials they use in a mattress is enough reason to avoid them. If you don't share these opinions ... then by all means ignore them :). If you personally or through other sources you may know or have knowledge of have access to information which is more accurate than anything I have posted ... then I would encourage you to post it here. This would be a valuable service to anyone who reads this thread.

I have no control over which parts of this thread or this site you choose to either read or bypass and I also have no issues with how you calculate value, what you believe, or what you end up choosing to buy. Anyone is welcome to use the information on this site in any way they choose.

I notice as well that the Koolcomfort memory foam used in the iComfort is now listed on some sites as being 5 lbs density. If this is accurate ... then this is a step in the right direction even though this is not listed on the Serta site itself. Also if this is the case ... then perhaps the actual density of the Gel Foam and the memory foam it is added to might also be listed at some point to save people from having to guess or calculate it indirectly. Perhaps you could ask Serta about this with the same "intensity" as you are questioning (and/or ignoring or mischaracterizing) the information you are reading here?

Regardless of any of this though ... the bigger issue is about people buying mattresses which are based on having to jump through these kinds of "information hoops" in the first place and on the methods the major players in the industry use to avoid real transparency and avoid giving people ways to make meaningful comparisons between different mattresses and materials.

There is lots of information on the site about the Tempurpedic ... and if you choose to go in that direction you will at least have the comfort and assurance of using a known quality material even if the price and value is not comparable to many other choices you may have.

I have talked with "John" at memoryfoamdirect some time ago and while the layering of their Dream mattresses is similar to the cloud luxe in terms of foam density and layering ... they are also using Chinese memory foam of unknown origin. Their "testing" does not include any testing for chemicals in the mattress or VOC offgassing. Their Classic series is also identical to the Novosbed even down to the fact that both of them are using unknown Chinese memory foam of the same density and layering.

Regarding getting a 2-3" Serta memory foam topper for $1000 ... that would be overpaying to say the least since you can buy a 2.5" Serta gel memory foam topper for less than a third of this at Amazon . This would still be way to much memory foam however if you put this on top of a mattress which already had 4" of memory foam in it.

The Serta gel memory foam is manufactured by Advanced Urethane Technologies which is part of Sleep Innovations. Both Serta and Sleep Innovations have a license to use the gel from Edizone (along with many other manufacturers who use it in many different ways).

Hope this helps ... and I'm still looking for more bushes to "beat around" :)

Phoenix
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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... what's the buzz 21 Nov 2011 06:04 #162

  • moose0721
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Fair enough thanks. Your opinion is valuable to me obviously or I wouldn't be continuing any conversation.

The $1000 isn't for just the memory foam topper, its for the bed and the topper. My wording was lazy.

I did actually read the beginning of this thread like I do with many other. I've spent hours reading post after post but just couldn't figure out why thru all of your data calculation that you couldn't share the density's of the icomforts. Your not a magician but I assumed you figured out the density. My apologies on that account.

Now can I ask you what you would recommend me buying instead of the Icomfort?

If it matters i'm 5'11 160lbs and my gf is 5'3 120lbs.

Should I go for the tempurpedic? Or try and find a local mattress manufacture in Calgary Alberta?

Don't mean to drill you with so many questions its just that your view of the Icomfort is a little negative and I don't want to make a mistake buying a bed I'll regret. Budget is currently $2100CAD but could be ballooned to no more than $2500.

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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 21 Nov 2011 14:48 #163

  • Irishman222
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Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for the wealth of information. Wow, I wasn't planning to do this much research for a new bed. :ohmy: All excellent info though. Would you consider recommending say 3 places and bed types I could narrow my search down to, given my location and information shared? Greatly appreciate your help and exceptionally fast responses.

Best regards,
Irish

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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... what's the buzz 21 Nov 2011 18:09 #164

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Hi moose721,

There are several factory direct manufacturers in Calgary but two of them (and one retail store) are members of this site and provide some great quality and value choices in different "niches". Both of the manufacturers will make mattresses with memory foam on request however they are both well aware of the "limitations" of memory foam itself and like many independent manufacturers are somewhat hesitant to promote it because of the widespread consumer misunderstanding about it.

The Calgary list is in post #2 here .

They are each very different but exceptional resources and I would highly recommend you call them and/or pay them a visit. They have the best combination of knowledge, service, and value in Calgary IMO.

The pricing of the memory foam topper makes more sense now ... but there is no way that 6" - 7" of memory foam is suitable for anyone and you would be inviting both rapid breakdown of the mattress and back issues. Memory foam is not suitable for a support layer because in any version it is too soft and requires support materials under it to keep you in alignment. with 6-7" of memory foam ... it would effectively be a support layer and your heavier parts would sink in too deeply and you would tend to be sleeping out of alignment ... not to mention paying for a material that had no benefit in that thickness.

Both of you are in the lower weight range and depending on your typical sleeping positions may do best with different layering on each side of the mattress. There is no way I would be looking at Tempurpedic when there are two high quality and high value manufacturers in the city I lived in unless there was something subjective about the Tempurpedic that was important enough to pay the premium price.

Phoenix
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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 21 Nov 2011 18:16 #165

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Hi Jaxson,

Congratulations on your mattress ... and I think you made a good choice and as you mentioned you have lots of flexibility in case you need to exchange a layer.

I hope you have a chance to give us a report when your mattress arrives.

Phoenix
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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 21 Nov 2011 18:46 #166

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Hi irishman222,

Narrowing these down to 2 or 3 is rather difficult because there is a wide variety of different mattress styles, materials, and pricing represented in the list and what may be great for one may not be the preference of another. If you forced me though I would probably go in the direction of these 4 and I would spend some time with them on the phone asking questions about your specific preferences and budget range and letting them know of your testing experience before deciding which to visit.

www.shovlinmattress.com/ Now a member of this site.
scottjordan.com/category/mattresses/ Also now a member of this site.
www.norwalkmattress.com/

Phoenix
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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 21 Nov 2011 22:43 #167

  • moose0721
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Thanks Phoenix I am in contacts with Colin as we speak and I will contact Halstead as well for a quote.

We both sleep on our side so have a plush bed with support is needed, rather than a very firm bed.

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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 21 Nov 2011 22:45 #168

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One more thing, do you think I should consider a latex bed with a memory foam layer on top? I sense a bit of hesitation in recommending the memory foam beds?

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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 22 Nov 2011 00:06 #169

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Hi Moose0721,

You sense correctly :)

If you were to talk with 100 independent mattress manufacturers who have their choice of any material they want to put in their mattresses ... a large percentage of them tend to downplay memory foam and many won't even make it ... even though they have access to high quality memory foam and could easily include it in their designs.

There are several reasons for this ... including some of the real reasons behind the new fire codes in the US which were more than anything IMO part of an effort to drive independents out of business because of the difficulties of prototyping a memory foam mattress (which to some degree has worked) but a bigger reason has to do with memory foam itself and its strengths and weaknesses and durability. These manufacturers are often multigenerational and depend on their local reputation more than anything else and many of them are not willing to risk their reputation on any type of memory foam. There is an article here which explores this in more detail.

Part of this as well is connected to the misinformation about memory foam and to the confusion and lack of understanding about memory foam in general in the consumer market.

Memory foam is only suitable for use in the upper layers of a mattress because by its nature ... all memory foam is too soft to provide support for the body profile. It is a pressure relieving material that needs a firmer layer underneath it (usually polyfoam) to provide correct support. The support layers under the memory foam are also responsible for a big part of how a memory foam mattress feels.

In addition to this ... there is a huge variety of different memory foams ... some of which are really bad and only last a few months and some of which are much higher quality. Many consumers don't realize that a "memory foam mattress" only means a few inches of memory foam over something else used for support. They also believe that "more is better" whereas in actual fact thinner layers of memory foam are actually much better. There should never be more memory foam in a mattress than is needed for an individuals pressure relief needs based on their height, weight, and sleeping positions.

I personally believe that latex ... or even the highest quality polyfoam is a better material in many cases than memory foam but I also realize that some people like the unique memory foam feel. My personal favorite layering for memory foam is thinner layers mixed with either high quality polyfoam or latex foam in the comfort layers. This can help overcome some of the weaknesses of most memory foam such as its lack of breathability, it's slower response, the difficulty of changing positions on it, and the heat issues that are connected to many memory foams. Latex is also far more durable than even the best memory foams (5 lbs and over made by a quality foam pourer), and low quality memory foams are among the least durable of all foams.

Because of the extreme amount of misinformation on the web about memory foam ... many consumers believe that the cheap knockoffs that compare themselves to tempurpedic have some truth to them. While there are memory foams that are equal in quality to Tempur foam ... most of the "junk" that is advertised and sold can't compare to these higher quality foams.

So all in all ... memory foam has its place in mattress manufacturing but it is not even close to the "panacaea" that many people believe it is. Many people have never compared memory foam to the pressure relieving abilities of higher quality materials such as low ILD latex which not only relieves pressure as well as memory foam but is far more supportive and durable so their feeling about memory foam is in a narrow frame of reference.

More thoughts about either Tempurpedic or memory foam in general are in post #2 here and post #20 here .

Phoenix
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Re: The Serta iComfort mattress ... so confused 22 Nov 2011 03:37 #170

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thanks for the lengthy reply Phoenix. As the saying goes to each his own, and I myself prefer a memory foam bed over latex rubber foam. I don't like the spongy almost springy feel of latex. BUT I am curious as to how long you expect a bed to last before you body requires a new fit? I believe 7-8 years is a good estimate. And would a memory foam bed last for 2 particularly light individuals for 8 years? Probably IF it was made with quality materials.

This can help overcome some of the weaknesses of most memory foam such as its lack of breathability, it's slower response, the difficulty of changing positions on it, and the heat issues that are connected to many memory foams. Latex is also far more durable than even the best memory foams (5 lbs and over made by a quality foam pourer), and low quality memory foams are among the least durable of all foams.


The irony here is that both my gf and I never felt the Icomfort had a slow response or was difficult to change positions. It was a bit weird for about 2 seconds after turning. The gel memory foam rebounded very well. We did try the latex icomfort and did not prefer the springy feeling.

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