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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 01 Feb 2012 21:18 #46

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Hi again SleeplessinDallas,

This reply is more specific to your circumstances than the last more general thoughts that your comment and feedback "inspired".

I am hopeful that your back pain is just a matter of adjusting to a sleeping surface that is firmer than you are used to and is simply a matter of giving it (and your body) some time to "correct" the sleeping memory from the past.

I'm assuming that the area of the pain is somewhat similar to what you have experienced after your previous mattresses softened (mid and upper back)?

It seems somewhat ironic to me that the back pain you previously experienced after some time is now happening at the beginning of a new mattress experience. Hopefully this will work the other way around starting with some pain which then goes away and stays away as much as any mattress can make it possible for this to happen.

I'll wait to make any more comments about what may be happening or any thoughts about a solution until I hear more ongoing feedback that may give a better clue about what is happening and if there really is a "problem".

The bad news of course is that you are experiencing pain which is never any fun regardless of the reasons. The good news is that you have adjustment options and a good manufacturer behind you along with great materials so once you get it right will "stay" right for much longer.

For now though ... I hope you can "hang in there" until it becomes more clear about what is happening.

Phoenix
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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 01 Feb 2012 22:58 #47

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Thank you Phoenix!

Ironic, isn't it? Yes-- same as always-- mid to upper pain. Seems to be mostly muscular b/c it's usually middle to sides going outward from the spine. Not really pain along the spine if that makes sense. It's more like screaming muscles.

I'm hoping this is just due to a correction in form while sleeping and that it will subside. If not, I'll continue to determine what tweaks might need to be made to this one.

Stay tuned.....

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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 03 Feb 2012 13:31 #48

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Sleepless, most of the time you can tell quite easily if you are having muscle-related pain or not. Just press (or have somebody else press) their finger-tips into soft tissue areas on your back (not spine) and if you feel pain then it's likely muscle-related. Back muscles can take a while to heal up depending on which muscles and the degree of the issue, but the typical range is 2 days to 2 weeks for resolution. With an average of around 3-5 days unless it is more of an injury-related matter. When it comes to mid-section muscles (let's call them torso muscles to include everything front, back and sides between hips and shoulders) there are internal and external types. If you strain muscles that are more interor to your torso cavity, it can be painful and not as obvious since you can't press on those like you can the exterior. However, either way in your case it should not take long for things to resolve if you are dealing with muscle issues as it is very possible your body is just trying to adjust to the new bed. Let's hope that's the case.

Sonic

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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 03 Feb 2012 14:55 #49

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Hi SleeplessinDallas,

I was giving some thought to your "symptoms" and pending more feedback I thought I'd share an incredibly helpful site I discovered. It talks about the different muscle trigger points and the referred pain patterns of each muscle (which they show in a diagram). Also talks about causes and solutions with pressure point treatments and stretches.

In particular in your case ... I would take a look at www.pressurepointer.com/Latissimus_trigger_points.htm and www.pressurepointer.com/trapezius_trigger_points.htm

Maybe this will help to identify your trigger points and the pain patterns connected with them which in turn could lead to a working theory (working on it) on how this is connected to your mattress experiences.

Phoenix
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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 12 Feb 2012 23:13 #50

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Hey guys,

Thank you for this site Phoenix- very helpful! And Sonic too!

So- here's the latest.....seems like less muscular now and like it's moving closer to my spine and when I wake up it's middle to upper, near my spine, and I feel like I need to pop my back a ton- even all the way up b/t my shoulders! So- a few good twists and pops down my spine, I get up and feel fine. But- it does not feel good when I first wake up. I am also tossing a turning a good deal at night for some reason.

I almost feel like the adjustable flex slats are actually pushing UP too much? I know they are supposed to allow you to sink more, but I'm wondering if when they are brand new if I dont weight enough to push down the latex, the coils, and into the slats? The mattress is really following the lines of the flex slats- so much so that you can actually see where the mattress rises up where each person would sleep and sort of sinks a bit in the middle-- this is bc it's two twin xl flex slat foundations and they meet in the middle. Each foundation arches up in the center (where you sleep) and tapers on the sides.

So- I am thinking they just dont have enough give to let me sink in enough b/c I almost feel like my back is sort of arching toward the ceiling. When I sleep right in the middle where they meet and do not arch up, it seems better. I know that a solid flat wood box foundation should technically feel more firm than a flex slat foundation, but I am wondering if I should try out a solid wood flat foundation on my side and just see if that helps reduce the push back effect. I dont think it's necessarily the latex pushing back, I think it's the slats-- and they are open all the way for the most ability to flex. Is that possible?

I know if the mattress is too firm and not allowing my hips to sink enough, you'll have an arch in your lower back that doesnt make contact with the mattress as well. But this is more like my middle and upper back are being pushed upward from the bed- toward the ceiling rather than letting them settle in.

Does that make sense?? I've attached a pic of the slats to see the arch......

Do you think it's worth a shot to try a solid wood flat foundation or do you think that would firm it up even more?
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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 13 Feb 2012 02:42 #51

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Hi SleeplessinDallas,

I think that your question is a valid one and goes back to some of my "instinctive" concerns about how unusual this was back in post #11 here .

When I talked with them at the time they said there had been no issues with this and because I know that they listen carefully to the feedback from their customers I was satisfied that there had been no issues but your question is slightly different and has to do with the flex strength of the slats themselves and may not be something they have "connected" to certain feedback like yours.

While I have no direct experience with this combination ... thinking "logically" there are a few things I would wonder about. First, the pocket coils aren't as heavy as latex and may not pre-compress the slats to a flat position. Coils also react to pressure differently than latex because the pressure that goes "in" the top of a coil comes out the bottom in the same surface area while latex "spreads out" the pressure into a larger surface area as it goes deeper because the latex cells are all interconnected and affect the ones beside them. This means that the coils may "pass on" the contour of what is below it more easily than a latex foam core and since there are only a few inches of latex above them to "widen or even out" the pressure, it may be something that you can feel. This all means that it may very well be that the center part of the bowed slats may be slightly adding to the pressure you feel directly above them.

While all of this is "theory" of course and I don't specifically know the firmness level of the slats, it certainly makes sense to me as a real possibility. I would probably test the theory by putting the mattress on the floor (with a blanket to protect it) if you can to see if this makes any difference before I bought a firm slatted base.

The other side of this is connected to the "popping" of your spine. Because you mentioned that you spent a good deal of time hunched over a computer (as I do), there may be a tendency towards a curvature which has become more "rigid" and the popping may be a symptom of the spine loosening into a more "normal" flexibility and position. This too is of course theory (and a chiropractor would know better than me about this) but I do know that both the process of developing a misalignment and rigidity and the process of correcting it can have similar symptoms. If this is the case ... it could also account for the tossing and turning and even the "movement" of the pain/discomfort (which is not uncommon in a "healing" process) because of the of the re-alignment/adjustment process.

If you had to rate the overall discomfort ... would you say it's improved somewhat, become worse overall, or is about the same but has just changed location?

All of this is somewhat "educated" speculation of course and the real reason may be a combination of factors or even something different completely but your comments have certainly made me suspect (as you do) that the issue may be connected with the slats and if you can I would certainly test it out on a firm (and even) floor.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 13 Feb 2012 22:45 #52

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Thanks Phoenix!

You are exactly right about the weight of the coils not compressing the flex slats. The mattress very much follows the arches and dip of the flex slats. I even had them come look at it the day after it was delivered to make sure that was correct. So- the mattress is completely following the lines of the slats and not precompressing them to flatten out the mattress. Sovn has offered to let me borrow a wood slat frame to try out and see if that's better and then go from there. Durability wise, is it ok to put a mattress with ~1500 coils (king) on a wood slat foundation as opposed to a box spring? Or if I have a really sturdy frame with lots of metal and cross beams underneath- would just a piece of plywood suffice underneath??

Another things I was just toying with was this- our queen guest bed is a very firm old Spring Air Back Supporter. Nothing special, but is always my go to when my back hurts in our bed. It has a very cheap oldish "memory foam" topper on it- about 1" and with a tiny little egg crate pattern. It feels really nice on that bed b/c it's just enough softness on top of that firm mattress. I put it on our king (head to toe queen fits side to side king for the majority of the mattress)- it doesnt reach down past your knees, but should give an idea of how it feels in your shoulders, back, and hips. Since I do like (and am accustomed to) the memory foam feel, I wonder if just 1" on top of the 25ILD talalay latex and firm coils might be just enough to relieve just a bit of pressure and give me a more familiar feel while not compromising support. I think I'll try it tonight and just see how it feels. Worst case it's awful and I will not be getting one in a king. ;)

About my back- very interesting point about the damage and correction process. I would say that the pain has been better than before- it's also moved. It's gone from what seems like really angry muscles in my middle back to just a little higher and closer to my spine- again, the need to twist and pop my spine. But, once I swist and pop, it feels a lot better and the pain does not linger through the day like it used to, so that's good. It hasnt been enough to make me retreat to the guest room like usual, so I think we're making progress here for sure! And with a mattress this firm with these materials I am hoping the sag factor will be highly unlikely like we discussed. So- just a few tweaks and maybe we'll get this just right!!! :)

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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 14 Feb 2012 03:39 #53

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Hi SleeplessinDallas,

Durability wise, is it ok to put a mattress with ~1500 coils (king) on a wood slat foundation as opposed to a box spring? Or if I have a really sturdy frame with lots of metal and cross beams underneath- would just a piece of plywood suffice underneath??


If the slats are close enough together that there isn't any danger of some of the coils sitting on and "going through" a gap or being only partly supported on the edge of a slat and partly sagging then I would think it would be fine. It would feel more "comfortable" to me if there was something to support the coils in the gaps though if the coils don't have any base foam under them. The plywood would probably be fine on the frame and the coil support would be more even as long as it's well supported to the floor (which it seems it would be) to keep it from sagging.

Since I do like (and am accustomed to) the memory foam feel, I wonder if just 1" on top of the 25ILD talalay latex and firm coils might be just enough to relieve just a bit of pressure and give me a more familiar feel while not compromising support. I think I'll try it tonight and just see how it feels. Worst case it's awful and I will not be getting one in a king.


While anything is possible ... I would be really surprised if a 1" softened memory foam topper compromised your support and I think it would be well worth a try.

And with a mattress this firm with these materials I am hoping the sag factor will be highly unlikely like we discussed. So- just a few tweaks and maybe we'll get this just right!!!


Given all your reports and the direction of the changes that are happening ... I'm pretty confident that you're not far off and that a little time (for you) and a little tweaking (on the mattress) will get you there. As a further comment too regarding the healing or adjustment process, (and the area of natural healing has been an area of long term interest and "indirect" involvement for me for many years), it's not at all unusual when dealing with pain that a practitioner will have to "chase the pain" as one area gets better and another area that was connected to it and somewhat masked takes over when the first one improves.

Like you said the good news is that the mattress won't be softening so that when it's right ... it can stay right!

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 14 Feb 2012 19:19 #54

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Well......I am thrilled to report that with the 1" cheap-o memory foam topper last night, I slept GREAT! I slept pretty solid with little tossing and turning, very minimal aches this morning, and I didn't even want to get out of bed last night. Crazy! And for some reason my husband has actually been snoring since we got the new bed and didn't last night. But he said he was a little restless last night. Anyway- we'll give it another few nights before adjusting anything else. I think maybe the 1" of memory foam could possibly be just enough "softness" to feel familiar and cozy without compromising support.

I feel kind of like an idiot to put a cheap-o topper on this expensive bed, but hey- whatever works, right?

If this continues to work, we'll be in the market for a 1" king size convoluted memory foam topper- something that's nice and soft. Some of the cheap ones tend to feel kind of hard or even crunchy? Ours is nice and soft, but is only a queen ;)

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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 15 Feb 2012 00:19 #55

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Hi SleeplessinDallas,

That's GREAT news. It seems that just a little bit of extra cush can make a big difference. :)

I feel kind of like an idiot to put a cheap-o topper on this expensive bed, but hey- whatever works, right?


No arguments here ... and I'd rather be an idiot (lots of my friends think I am anyway) than sore!

Some of the cheap ones tend to feel kind of hard or even crunchy? Ours is nice and soft, but is only a queen


Yes, the lower quality memory foams often have less "memory" and are stiffer when they're cold and often too soft when they warm up. In memory foam, higher quality usually pays, especially when it's the top layer ... although higher quality doesn't always mean really expensive with all the wide range of pricing and value that's out there.

Phoenix
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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 16 Feb 2012 01:52 #56

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Phoenix,

When you have a moment, I would love suggestions of where to buy just a simple 1" (or slightly less) memory foam topper. I do seem to like convoluted, but it's not 100% necessary. And I'd like it to be soft and rather inexpensive :)

I am also not opposed to like 1" of maybe 19" ILD talalay- something also quite soft, but not sure if it would have the same feel?

Appreciate all of your help!

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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 18 Feb 2012 04:45 #57

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Hi SleeplessinDallas,

I haven't forgotten you and as I have the chance I'm looking around for 1" better quality memory foam toppers which are not so common (more common 2" and up which I would avoid). I'll post here what I discover.

In terms of latex ... probably the closest to memory foam is 14 ILD. Most memory foams range from about 9 ILD to about 18 or so (and the majority are under 15) but of course the comparison is not so direct because of how memory foam takes time to get soft and latex is more instant so it doesn't take any time to respond either with compression or release.

Do you happen to know what the density or type of the memory foam you have is (not that it will be like new any more but I thought it might give me a sense of the general type of foam it was)?

Phoenix
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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 18 Feb 2012 23:50 #58

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Hi SleeplessinDallas,

Well ... I think the best I've seen so far both in terms of the variety of choices and pricing is ...

www.cymax.com/Mattress-Toppers--C1099.htm?Sort=Price-Asc&Count=60 . They have Mem-cool (which I think is Aerus), Sensus, and a whole bunch more and best of all ... there are lots of 1" choices and they also sell covers if you need them.

search1.unbeatablesale.com/?vno=96&Ne=1000013&N=1000048+4294965946&Ntt=topper Also sell Aerus in 1" and lots more.

The other strange thing is that Cymax also seems to sell Venus 8 lb memory foam (which hasn't been available in a topper for several years) but you have to go to the Sears website to find that out. Go figure.

www.sears.com/shc/s/s_10153_12605_Bed+%26+Bath_Bedding+Essentials_Mattress+Pads+%26+Toppers?viewItems=25&keyword=twin+comfort+magic+venus&autoRedirect=false

There's about as many good quality/low cost memory foam options here as I think anyone could handle :)

Phoenix
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Re: Sealy Embody Introspection 19 Feb 2012 01:12 #59

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Thanks so much Phoenix, very helpful!

The one we have now is literally a super cheap topper from Bed Bath and Beyond. It's 1" convulted- the egg crate pattern is very small- smaller than the usual eggcrate pattern and it's pretty soft.

Yesterday, I swapped my flex slats out for the solid wood slats- actually just borrowing them for about 10 days or so to try it out. It's nice- very solid pieces of wood, close together- maybe only an inch or so apart. It certainly does make the mattress feel less bouncy- more firm. But, it was good last night- no back pain at all this morning and since it's Saturday, I slept a few hours longer than weeknights, which usually makes my back hurt more. I didn't have the topper on last night b/c I wanted to just try it with the mattress only with the solid foundation and see how it was. It was comfy enough, but not 'cozy', so I might try the topper again to see how that feels as well.

My only challenge now is that my husband says he sleeping restlessly earlier this week (with topper) and that he had some lower back pain this morning (no topper last night), which kind of perplexes me. He still has the flex slats on his side. So, we'll keep tweaking a bit and see what we can learn.

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Sealy Embody Introspection 23 Mar 2015 14:18 #60

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Since this thread is a few years old, I would like to know if anyone has any long term analysis and reviews of the Sealy Embody Introspection mattress and how it compares to the Tempurpedic brand? I have Polartec sweatshirts and they keep me warm in the winter, so how can the Sealy Embody have Polartec and not feel hot? My Tempurpedic is about 10 years old and doesn't feel hot at all. What is the longevity and feel of the Sealy Emobdy Introspection to let's say the original Tempurpedic?

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