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On the Fence :) 12 May 2015 14:52 #1

  • Cloud99
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Dear Phoenix,

I've read a lot of posts on your website and I'm very impressed with your knowledge, your patience and detailed explanation on this difficult subject.
We recently bought a house and I have to say, as difficult as it was to go through the process, it's been a shorter and much more pleasant trip than researching and buying a mattress. We've paid dearly in time and frustration for not doing our homework before buying but it never occurred to us we even had to do that nowadays for a mattress.
After 14 years of happily sleeping on a Simmons BeautyRest, we had to change the mattress suddenly because this old one (which I now regret deeply) started to have springs poking through.
So we bought another Simmons which regrettably sunk in the middle in only 3 weeks so we returned it luckily. Then Saatva kept luring us with their adds and obviously, their manufactured 'hollyer than though' reviews.... So we fell for that too and now, 5 weeks later, we're sinking in quicksand again.
Then my husband found an article in CR and we started to look at two other options: Hybrid (Charles P. Rogers) and the other, all Latex which we read a lot about on your website. We are both in our golden years and a bit more interested in good food than we were 30 years ago :) So we need a very supportive mattress that wouldn't sink or disintegrate in a few years. We're both side-sleepers mostly.
Because I was so fed up with the first two mattresses, I decided to really do my homework this time. I was able to charm a sales guy at CPR into giving me the specs on a hybrid (Powercore Estate 9000) which sounded very good and we are still considering because we had innersprings all our lives and we were very happy with them. I remember our first mattress in the 60's which had horse hair in it along with the springs and it lasted 20 years.

But we are still on the fence, because of the new option that appeared to us in your posts and which seems very attractive as well. We went to a local store here in California and really liked the feel of all Latex. It was 13" high, XXF/F/M/S, (3 Dunlop layers with 1 Talalay soft on top).
Also, I am attaching here the CPR specs and hopefully you can help us through this decision between the hybrid and an all natural Latex mattress. All the specs are answers to my specific questions which I learned on your website.

Powercore Estate 9000 - full size mattress
The mattress is 15.5" thick. 1" of polyfoam encasement on both sides of an 8" individually wrapped coil unit. 10" total before layers of latex. Imagine a grid of coils wrapped in polyfoam for structure, not comfort. Then there is 4" inches of latex. Then 1.5" for the cover to finish the mattress and provide an all natural fire retardant filling, quilted in a knitted cotton top.

-Layers: 2" of 32 ILD latex : 1" of 24 ILD latex : 1" 24 ILD gel latex : 44 density on polyfoam encasement.

-Polyfoam only used for encasement

-Heavy titanium 12 gauge steel wire

-Coils - 958 coils total, 13 turns on outer 2 rows of coil grid, and 11 turns on inside of coil grid.

-The surface foam is all natural latex.

-All natural Talalay latex.

-All of our mattresses are made here in the US.

-Feel: Since the top gel latex is not as bouncy or resistant as the normal latex, the immediate feel is a little flatter than normal. But the 'flat' feel is because the impact of your body is being absorbed and the transfer of motion being eliminated. The 7000 would be more bouncy.

Dear Phoenix, please let us know, we're very anxious to get your opinion and want to thank you in advance for helping us making the right decision between these two options, mostly for durability - Hybrid or Latex.

Best regards and many thanks!

Nan :) Northern California

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Last edit: by Cloud99. Reason: addition to description

On the Fence :) 12 May 2015 16:09 #2

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Hi Cloud99,

After 14 years of happily sleeping on a Simmons BeautyRest, we had to change the mattress suddenly because this old one (which I now regret deeply) started to have springs poking through.
So we bought another Simmons which regrettably sunk in the middle in only 3 weeks so we returned it luckily. Then Saatva kept luring us with their adds and obviously, their manufactured 'hollyer than though' reviews.... So we fell for that too and now, 5 weeks later, we're sinking in quicksand again.


You were very fortunate to get 14 years of use from your mattress but there have been many changes in the industry since you purchased it and unfortunately most of them haven't been for the better (see post #3 here ). In the current market it's a good idea to avoid the major brands because they use lower quality and less durable materials in their mattresses than many of their smaller competitors although I would also avoid any mattress regardless of the name of the manufacturer where you aren't able to find out the quality and durability of the materials inside it to make sure there aren't any lower quality materials or "weak links" in the mattress (see the guidelines here ).

I'm not sure if either of your mattresses had visible impressions (impressions that you can see and measure with nobody on the mattress) but it's also possible that if this was happening so quickly after your purchase that both of these mattresses were too soft for you and didn't provide suitable support under the heavier parts of your body which would be a suitability issue in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) rather than a durability issue although neither mattress would likely be the most durable choice available either (the Saatva would generally be a more durable choice than most Simmons mattresses). The good news is that you had the option to return both mattresses after a purchase so there was little risk in trying them.

Then my husband found an article in CR and we started to look at two other options: Hybrid (Charles P. Rogers) and the other, all Latex which we read a lot about on your website. We are both in our golden years and a bit more interested in good food than we were 30 years ago :) So we need a very supportive mattress that wouldn't sink or disintegrate in a few years. We're both side-sleepers mostly.
Because I was so fed up with the first two mattresses, I decided to really do my homework this time. I was able to charm a sales guy at CPR into giving me the specs on a hybrid (Powercore Estate 9000) which sounded very good and we are still considering because we had innersprings all our lives and we were very happy with them. I remember our first mattress in the 60's which had horse hair in it along with the springs and it lasted 20 years.


You can see my comments about the Consumer Reports mattress ratings and recommendations in post #2 here and in this topic . While they may be a good source of information about more "objective" purchases ... as you can see I would consider them to be an unreliable source of information or guidance about purchasing a mattress. My thoughts are shared by most of the more knowledgeable people in the industry (see post #5 here for an example). Having said that ... at least the Charles P Rogers mattress you are considering would be a good quality choice.

You can read more about Charles P Rogers in post #34 here (and the rest of the topic) and in this topic and this topic as well and a forum search on Charles P Rogers (you can just click the link) will bring up more comments and feedback about them as well.

Powercore Estate 9000 - full size mattress
The mattress is 15.5" thick. 1" of polyfoam encasement on both sides of an 8" individually wrapped coil unit. 10" total before layers of latex. Imagine a grid of coils wrapped in polyfoam for structure, not comfort. Then there is 4" inches of latex. Then 1.5" for the cover to finish the mattress and provide an all natural fire retardant filling, quilted in a knitted cotton top.

-Layers: 2" of 32 ILD latex : 1" of 24 ILD latex : 1" 24 ILD gel latex : 44 density on polyfoam encasement.

-Polyfoam only used for encasement

-Heavy titanium 12 gauge steel wire

-Coils - 958 coils total, 13 turns on outer 2 rows of coil grid, and 11 turns on inside of coil grid.

-The surface foam is all natural latex.

-All natural Talalay latex.


Thanks for providing complete specs for the Powercore Estate 9000 ... I appreciate it. There are some comments about the Powercore Estate 9000 in posts #3 and #4 here but the specs you provided are more accurate and I've added a comment there that refers to your original post here for those that read it.

The specs you provided are good and the polyfoam layers are inside the thickness range that wouldn't be a durability issue and there are no obvious weak links in the mattress so it would be well worth considering as one of your finalists.

But we are still on the fence, because of the new option that appeared to us in your posts and which seems very attractive as well. We went to a local store here in California and really liked the feel of all Latex. It was 13" high, XXF/F/M/S, (3 Dunlop layers with 1 Talalay soft on top).
Also, I am attaching here the CPR specs and hopefully you can help us through this decision between the hybrid and an all natural Latex mattress. All the specs are answers to my specific questions which I learned on your website.


The choice between a latex/innerspring hybrid and an all latex mattress would be a preference choice (as long as there are no weak links in either one) rather than a "better/worse" choice. There is more about the differences between them in post #13 here and the posts it links to. This would also be a high quality and very durable choice and there are no "weak links" in this mattress either. The advantage of a component mattress is that you can make changes to the mattress after a purchase either by rearranging the layers or exchanging a layer after a purchase if your sleeping experience indicates that you need firmer or softer comfort or support layers so it can be customized both before and after a purchase.

The other advantage of a component mattress is that you can replace one of the layers down the road if it softens or breaks down before the others (this would usually be the top layer) or if your needs and preferences change over time without having to replace the entire mattress.

One is also a local choice that you can test in person before you purchase it and the Charles P Rogers is an online choice that you can't test in person before a purchase so I would make sure you are comfortable with the return/exchange options you have with the Charles P Rogers (and any costs involved) just in case the mattress doesn't turn out to be as suitable a "match" for you in terms of PPP as you hoped for.

There is more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) that is the most suitable "match" for your specific needs and preferences and how to identify and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for that are involved in each of them in post #2 here .

There is also more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of their suitability, durability, and value.

You are certainly looking at some very good options and once you are down to finalists that are all choices between "good and good" and none of them have any obvious weak links or lower quality materials in their design and if there are no clear winners between them then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your preferences between different types of mattresses, your local testing and/or conversations with each of them, their prices, the return/exchange options they have, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on "informed best judgement" based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

On the Fence :) 12 May 2015 19:33 #3

  • Cloud99
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Thank you so much Phoenix, I will consider all my options again and all your suggested posts. Cloud99

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Charles P. Rogers 19 Dec 2019 13:55 #4

  • quest4rest
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Greetings!

I tried a Naturepedic EOS mattress, which has 3" of Dunlop in an ILD of 19-22 over a coil system and found it very comfortable. Unfortunately, this mattress is out of my price range at $3500 in a king.

The Charles P. Rogers mattresses seem similar in construction to the Naturepedic EOS. Both manufacturers use a quilt pack with cotton and wool over a latex comfort layer and support coils. I'm wondering whether the Charles P. Rogers "Estate 9000" or "Lifetime 3" mattress would be closest in feel to the Naturepedic and other mattresses I've found comfortable.

For reference, my husband and I are under 140 pounds and primarily side sleepers but occasionally flip onto our backs. We've been sleeping on a Beautyrest Ultra Plush Pillow Top for the past 14 years, which was part of the "World Class Exceptionale" line.

Below are the specifications for the Charles P. Rogers mattresses we're considering. I would truly appreciate any insights anyone might offer, as Charles P. Rogers charges a $300-$350 transportation fee should we find that the mattress isn't suitable for us and need to return it. Obviously, we want to get this right the first time to avoid making a costly mistake.

Thank you!

Estate 9000 15 1/4" H
Cotton and Wool Quilt Pack
2" Talalay (32 ILD)
2" Talalay (24 ILD)
Active Powercore spring unit with zoned support and triple reinforced border. (I don't know the specific gauge of the coils or how many are used.)
Natural latex suspension layer
*This seems like it would be the closest in feel to the Naturepedic EOS mattress, however I'm wondering if the below model, the "Lifetime 3", might provide better support for someone with back issues.

Lifetime 3: 14 1/4" H
Cotton and Wool Quilt Pack
1" Talalay (24 ILD)
Nano Coils
2" (32 ILD)
Uses the same coil system as above
Natural latex suspension layer

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Last edit: by quest4rest.

Charles P. Rogers 19 Dec 2019 14:57 #5

  • Sweet Dreams
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I can't say which would provide you better support, but if you're thinking that the Lifetime 3 might due to its use of Nano Coils you should be aware that such coils are used as a comfort layer. Nano Coils do not provide support like larger coil spring bases, they're simply a layer of short encased light gauge springs which are used in place of another foam layer and are considered by some to be more durable. As the manufacturer CPR would be best qualified to explain the difference in feel and support between those two models and which might be closest to the EOS.

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Charles P. Rogers 19 Dec 2019 15:54 #6

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Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I really appreciate it. I wasn't aware that nano springs are used as a comfort layer and as an alternative to foam rather than to provide additional lumbar support. That's very good to know, as I had been thinking that the three inches of latex in the Lifetime 3 may not be plush enough to meet my needs, especially since only a third of these layers is a softer density latex.

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