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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 00:13 #1

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I've been pretty bummed by a lot of the longer term results people say they've had with a lot of the various foam mattresses. i know a lot of the amazon ones use low end foam in them. i think people mentioned katy wholesale here once before and Phoenix believed them to be similar to bed boss and mlily. I emailed the company and got a fast response from Jeff Isola (the owner). He said their 12" mattress is 1" 5.3lb density memory foam quilted to the cover, followed by 3" of 5.3lb density rebond memory foam and an 8" base of 1.8-2.0lb density 35ild poly base. Everything sounds decent for specs, but not too many reviews on them anywhere I could find. I asked in the email and he said that yes, the kwm mattresses are made by the same manufacturers of the bed boss and mlily and that's why kwm isn't listed on the certipur site even though they use certipur foam.

Unfortunately not too much info on rebond memory foam. Most rebond searches show carpet padding, motorcycle seat cushions. I think it was a page from the pfa website (don't quote me on that) that said even if a rebond foam contains as little as 20% memory foam scraps (the remainder poly scraps), it will act viscous with a slow response. Does this sound like an issue, like something that will fall apart or a way to salvage low end scraps and turn them into something that sounds better than it is?

The price is 429.00 for a full size if you order directly through them, has a free king pillow with it (not really a deal maker or breaker). The warranty is 25yrs but the typical for foam mattresses. It says they give a 120 day sleep trial (fine print says 60 days min) where they cover return shipping if I'm not satisfied with it. No restocking fees, no initial shipping fees tacked on. So long as it's been tried for 60 days and no more than 120. The price is somewhat higher than the usual 300-350 range for basic memory foam over a solid base, but those tend to have 1.5 density bases and 2.5-3.5lb density foams. Plus I figure the 'free' pillow and shipping is padded into the price. Any concerns about the rebond memory foam? Thanks.

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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 11:48 #2

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Hi brass,

You can see some of my thoughts about Katy Wholesale Mattress in post #3 here .

At the time this was written I didn't realize they were using rebonded foam which are foam scraps are glued together under compression in a resin. It's most commonly found as carpet underlay and is a low cost material. The density of rebond can't be compared to memory foam because it's a different material completely and it's generally denser and firmer than traditional mattress materials and has a different feel and performance. High quality rebond can be a durable material and lower quality rebond (generally 6 lbs or less) will be much less durable. If it really is rebond then the 5.3 lb density may be just marketing information to "make it sound" like Tempurpedic's 5.3 lb memory foam.

I asked in the email and he said that yes, the kwm mattresses are made by the same manufacturers of the bed boss and mlily and that's why kwm isn't listed on the certipur site even though they use certipur foam.


That makes no sense to me. If they are made by the same manufacturer then it would be a reason that they could be listed ... not the other way around and I personally wouldn't consider any material that was made in China that didn't carry a CertiPur certification. I would also be very cautious with a foam mattress that was compressed (especially vacuum compressed) over longer periods of time. You can see more comments about cheap Asian import mattresses that are involved in what I call the "race to the bottom" in post #6 here .

I would also be aware that if your mattress isn't suitable for you that the cost of returning it may be prohibitive.

Overall I would say you are probably getting a mattress that is worth somewhere in the range of what you are paying for it or less but if it was me there would be too much questionable information and too many unanswered questions to consider it and I would look for a more reliable manufacturer or supplier (such as one of the ones in post #12 here ).

While I'm not a fan of the BBB or the legitimacy of their ratings for non members ... in this case it may also be worth taking a look at their BBB feedback and reading some of the complaints.

Phoenix
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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 15:10 #3

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Phoenix, i know what you mean. And i know that rebond is compressed down 2-3x its' normal state (creating higher density) which made me wonder if it was 5lb memory foam content before it was compressed.. or 2-3lb memory foam scraps compressed to make it more like 5lb. I'm sure it's made in china, many of them are and Ben Folkens from what I understand paired up with James Ni to manufacture them using a facility in china. Ben Folkens i believe started bed boss first and mlily is a joint venture with him and Ni. The gentleman that emailed me didn't say that's why they couldn't be listed, just that's where he was getting the certipur status from because their kwm bed is a wholesale product made by the same folks who make bedboss and mlily and rebadged with their name on it (and a slightly different layering configuration than say the visco heir ht). I had seen that post #3 you referred to. Some of the advertising images (banners) used on kwm are the exact same ones used by bedboss.

I did come across some bbb reports from people, nothing that indicated their mattress though. More to do with furniture and stuff. I'm not a fan of the bbb legitimacy either. It's a good concept, but it's hardly worth the membership fee. The shop I worked for doing automotive was bbb and we had some nutty customers filing outrageous complaints even after the fact we offered to resolve any issues prior to bbb action. At the end of the day it's a real he said/she said, they collect their fees from businesses..it's just not what it's cracked up to be at all. I have no ties to kwm or loyalty to them over anyone else, though it did seem nice that the emails i got were straight forward and picked no bones about it. Of the other companies I've asked about their foams, most seem stuck on using 2.5 to 3lb density visco and 1.5 density poly.

I checked the link to better options and i'm sure they are better options. Unfortunately they're also 2-3x the price which is completely outside my budget. Other than maybe dreamfoam (brooklyn bedding) which i believe also dropped the quality of their base poly to the same sub 2lb range while keeping the price the same around $500 as it was when they used closer to 2.5-3lb poly for the base. For a full size mattress, foamorder's memory foam (basic, not split) is $1000 for a 10" mattress. Novosbed is $900 for a full size and I think they're the same as Sleep Innovations (lower cost amazon but very basic visco over poly differential setup). Rocky Mountains 10" full size is also 900 for 4lb memory foam. Obviously most of these are using u.s. produced foams compared to chinese but wow - at these prices, i guess i'm stuck with chinese options. I just can't afford to shop u.s.a. built on low end u.s.a. (chinese) wages. That's just for their memory foam selections, not even touching on latex (haven't won the lotto yet) lol. Maybe i'm better off going with a $250 import foam mattress and replacing it 4x?

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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 16:19 #4

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Hi brass,

I linked the BBB site because it had some evidence that they tend to misrepresent the quality of their products not so much because of any comments about the mattresses themselves. In general I agree with your assessment of the BBB.

If I was looking for a mattress in your budget range I wouldn't likely be considering memory foam at all because the odds are too high that you will end up purchasing a mattress that is low quality in one way or another and over the longer term the costs involved both in the quality of your sleep (by keeping a mattress longer than you otherwise would and "tolerating" it instead of sleeping well on it) and in replacing the mattress more frequently will most likely outweigh any cost savings vs buying a higher quality and more durable mattress in the first place.

To my knowledge ... neither mLily or BedBoss uses rebond foam in their mattresses although I could be wrong (and I'll check with some of the people I know who distribute them).

Rebond foam is a completely different animal than memory foam and while there are many variations. When it's used for carpet underlay 6 lb rebond is generally considered to be lower quality and 8 lb is higher quality.

Foam densities can also be easily manipulated using fillers ( see here ) which increase the density of the final material because the durability of memory foam is primarily based on it's polymer density not it's filled density so a filled 5 lb memory foam can be lower quality than an unfilled 3 lb memory foam.

If you are truly committed to a memory foam mattress in your budget range in spite of the risks involved then there are many good options (including Dreamfoam) that use 3 lb memory foam in your budget range that would probably be better choices in terms of quality, durability, and value than an imported mattress that used a 5 lb memory foam that was filled ... and you would have the assurance of knowing what you are buying.

I've also sent an email to CertiPur that asked whether Katy Wholesale was using their marketing materials and logos legitimately so hopefully they will reply tomorrow.

I personally wouldn't be going in the direction you are leaning and I would ask "why" you are only looking at memory foam. I would also be very cautious because it's just too easy to justify the belief that you are getting good quality when unrealistically low prices are involved because most consumers "want to believe" that they are getting a "deal" so much that they too easily overlook overlook the evidence that indicates otherwise. There are lots of good "deals" in lower price ranges that are much more legitimate and that don't have so many questions, uncertainty, or risks involved although of course the risks that each person is willing to take with a mattress purchase and their personal value equation may be unique to them.

I don't believe you are "stuck" with Chinese options that are probably lower quality than your alternatives but I do believe that it's important to realize that the numbers you are looking at probably don't represent the quality/durability of the mattress you are considering and I would be very cautious about using them as a meaningful comparison.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 17:00 #5

Brooklyn Bedding just came out with a line of 'Foam Mattress" called the Crazy Quilt have you considered these. I don't know much about them but I'm sure customer service over there will be more then willing to reveal their materials to you. They seem inexpensive enough!!!!

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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 18:23 #6

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Actually i was considering memory foam because it seemed like a better alternative. As far as i can tell, my options are innerspring, air bed, futon, water bed, memory foam, latex and other organic solutions. I'm not crazy about buckwheat hulls and woven dandelions, that's a little too close to nature for me. Water beds are too heavy for my current floor structure and can be pricey as well. Air beds aren't all that comfy, i've slept on them for camping and regardless of how hard they're inflated, x amount of body weight on fabric/plastic over an air pocket produces the same pressure. I slept on a futon when i was younger, but they're a bit too firm for my taste now so that pretty much cancels out otis beds and the like. My current sad state of affairs i call a mattress is a worn out innerspring. Unfortunately, my preference is for some plushness on top even if the overall bed is medium or medium firm. I don't sleep well on firm or extra firm with a thin quilted top. So far everything I've read says that for generalization purposes, memory foam/foam lasts and performs as well as if not better than innerspring. I'm scared to buy another innerspring since i feel my mattress was lesser quality than mattresses used to be and it's 10yrs old - and the typical viewpoint now is beds aren't built like they were even 10yrs ago, so that leads me to believe an even less worthwhile mattress. My preference for some sort of 'cush' on top leads me down the pillowtop/eurotop road of non flipping, sagging, destined to fail avenue. So my curiosity led me down the path of foam. I've slept on memory foam and it's pretty decent to me for a sleeping surface, so it's not entirely an unknown. Plus the fact that there's albeit a 'fad' i guess you could say of the idea of a compressed rolled mattress that arrives on your door step. Fad or not, most chain mattress stores are 60mi from me and i did that last time with the mattress macguyvered to the roof of my car like a windsail for 60mi. (if i lived closer, their free delivery and all that jazz would apply but i don't). So the whole bit of cramming the mattress like a sardine and being able to have it at my doorstep is great for my situation.

Even going with the typical innerspring, my options are either 300-400 for virtually no padding requiring some sort of topper in addition to it. Or something i looked at was the Simmons recharge line which i believe is their lower end and places me again within the 400-500 price range. fyi, long ago i was very broke and desperate and picked up an innerspring from the dollar store for $100 - i don't recommend it. lol. With all the information out there from this forum and others like wtb mattress and sltd, the general consensus is choose anything BUT an innerspring. When an innerspring fails, unless mattress surgery is an option there's nothing you can do. With a homebrew foam mattress, if one layer breaks down i can replace it independently for a lot less than i can replace an entire mattress. Have i been unnecessarily scared away from innersprings? Would something like a simmons recharge (one of a hundred various subnames) be better than a foam mattress of similar price? I don't currently have the funds to purchase a bed to last me the next 15yrs and that's not the plan. maybe 5-8 realistically. Something temporary that will do, but not such junk as to replace it every 18mo either. Maybe there is no happy medium. A friend of mine invested 1500 in an S brand mattress (don't recall the exact one) and it's a plush top - excellent condition after 6yrs despite their heavier than average weight (350+), and that was for a king size bed. Hard to consider a foam bed for nearly the same price given i don't think a $1000 memory foam is really in the same arena as a top of the line premium innerspring. Regardless if bayer made the memory foam, or if it was made on the moon by nasa themselves as i understand it, memory foam's nature is to lose it's memory feel after some time and lose its' support despite springing back to shape. Nothing against any manufacturer, but eventually it's the nature of the beast. Even a premium scientifically designed water shedding pattern in a hydro edge performance car tire has a life expectancy.

Anyway, that's how i came to start looking for memory foam options. Nothing else seems doable or suitable for my preference and while i'm not unhappy with the feel of an innerspring they do tend to wear quickly - especially pillowtops, which is why i'm in the situation i am now. Actually i've done some feeling around while laying on my current mattress and came to realize the discomfort i'm feeling is what i believe is called 'hammocking'. There's a lot of pressure that's uncomfortable, but i don't feel the springs. I'm not bottomed out on the springs, the upper layers of 'fluff' have compressed so much that the top fabric now sags to the point that it's stretched extremely tight under the pressure points until the taught fabric itself feels 'hard' and has no give. I'm not looking to spend 500-600 for a mattress that's going to end up just like this in a year or two, there are 250-300 price range models that will do me at least that well (or poor). If a $500 mattress was suitable for the 4-6yr range it would be worth considering, but not for 18mo. If i have to start considering $1000 or more, then it may as well be a 12-15yr mattress consideration and is still out of my current budget. In the $1000+ range i can't realistically consider it for a middle of the road option. At that point, i may as well buy a couple $20 sleeping pads and throw a sleeping bag on the floor and save my money.

TandL, thanks for the heads up. No i hadn't seen the crazy quilt models. Definitely looks like an option, i'm guessing it's a regular block of poly? It appears to be zoned, but they haven't added any info like some of their other models, no description of foam density used or anything. Never slept on a straight foam block before. Wonder if it feels more like a bed or more like a couch cushion without any layering or visco type topper. Inexpensive enough to add a topper though. And thanks Phoenix for going to the trouble emailing certipur, i'd be interested as well to see what they have to say. Hopefully kwm or anyone else would opt to leave out certification seals if they truly weren't qualified than use them illegitimately. (I'd have more respect for someone who said hey, our foam is cheap and it's not been certified to any standard - that's why it's so cheap.)

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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 18:39 #7

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Hi brass,

Actually i was considering memory foam because it seemed like a better alternative.


I'm not sure why it would be better unless you are absolutely committed to memory foam in terms of your preferences and you've left out what may be the best options of all in your budget range ... either a higher quality polyfoam mattress or futon or a basic innerspring mattress that uses good quality comfort layers that won't break down or soften too quickly and that is a good match for you in terms of PPP.

If you were adventurous and in the lowest budget ranges and your springs are still in good condition (which is likely) then it may even be worth considering mattress surgery ( see here ) and replacing the foam layers in your mattress with higher quality more durable foam which should last you several years until you are able to buy a better quality mattress.

Phoenix
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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 19:43 #8

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Better in terms of durability and longevity. The current views that seem to be out there are innersprings deteriorate within a year or two, 3 at best and are dead by 5-6yrs. (well past the time they ideally should have been replaced). General consensus seems to be that even if a memory foam type mattress is all foam (no springs/cheap foam top padding) it will hold up longer. That the innersprings aren't so much the problem as the low quality stuff used in any quilting for a plush/pillow/euro top. I have no idea what a polyfoam mattress feels like, best i could imagine is a couch (thick plain poly cushions) - better than the floor, not really ideal for sleeping on. I haven't really seen any innersprings (other than specialty or high end budget) that use higher quality anything in them. Take off the name tag and they all seem to use spring cores, heavy thin foam to hide the feel of the spring tops, a ton of layers of poor quality foams compacted and quilted together. Maybe a thin sheet or two of this or that, low grade synthetic latex or thin sheets of lower grade memory foam in their comfort layers. Now i feel as though i'm back where i started, besides the base, we're comparing lower to mid grade foam comfort layers. The perk to me of a diy mattress was the ability to unzip it without destroying it, removing and replacing worn pieces as necessary. The futon i had was a nice one, durable as all get out - a rather expensive hand me down from a family member (single size futon mattress ran them upwards of $500 in the early 90's). However i was much younger and my body was more resilient then than it is now and despite being durable - i've found concrete to be durable too lol. Also like i mentioned before, considering i'm not in the suburbs (cable and dsl aren't even available here) the ability to order online and get home delivery takes me out of the boonies and gives me more options than i'd have if i had to rely on just brick and mortar stores. While walmart makes me cringe sometimes, the fact there's one on every street corner around here makes it easier to order even an uncompressed innerspring site to store (since they've expanded beyond what's on the shelf) and makes it more available to me.

That's why i mentioned the simmons recharge, seems to come in a variety of names - logan square, kenosha place, tania .. all subnames at different vendors under the recharge name and most seem to be around 615 coil count for a full with a bunch of non descript (no idea of density or any specs) foams: 1" aircool, 1" aircool, 1.25 oz celestra (?), 1/2" gel touch, 1/2" energy foam.. sounds like the typical pillowtop, lots of unknown thin layers, mostly squashed convoluted foams quilted together which sounds like sagging in progress. All in the 400-500 range, where i was under the impression for around that or even less, a 'basic' type memory foam construction could be had using better materials less likely to sag and deform so quickly.

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katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 19:48 #9

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Hi brass,

Better in terms of durability and longevity. The current views that seem to be out there are innersprings deteriorate within a year or two, 3 at best and are dead by 5-6yrs.


There's a lot of misinformation in the industry ... and they are mostly marketing stories that are more about selling competing mattresses than they are about providing accurate information. A mattress will tend to break down, soften, and compress from the top layers down and the innersprings are rarely the weak link of a mattress. If you are looking at an innerspring mattress then the key is to make sure the comfort layers are good quality and this is much more commonly found in smaller manufacturers than the major brands ... which I would avoid.

There is more about the variables that can affect the durability and the useful life of a mattress relative to each person in post #4 here and the posts it links to (it's also linked in the tutorial post).

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

katy wholesale - something to consider? 02 Mar 2014 22:25 #10

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Phoenix, thanks for the links. I guess where I was under the impression a memory foam type (or layered foam construction) mattress was better in terms of durability/longevity is somewhat referenced in one of the links you provided. post #3 says good quality (5lbs or more density) memory foam should last 10-12yrs. Even with the caveat that lesser quality (say medium quality, not top of the industry) 5lb memory foam in the form of a topper from xyz company available through ebay, amazon, etc were to last a portion of that..even cut in half, that suggests it would last 5-6yrs. Understandably, what constitutes 'useful' to one may greatly differ from another person's perspective. Accounting for this huge grain of salt figuring on half the expectancy that's still a lot longer than what's available in the upper layers of most innersprings (S brands). I don't really have the option of an old family run specialty mattress supplier around, so given what I have to work with - the "S brands" from places like us-mattress (chain stores) in the city, or memory foam (compressed and shipped to my door, or diy layers compressed and shipped to my door). This is where I'm confused I guess. So say a good set of innersprings or a good performing poly base, either way it breaks down to what's in the upper layers taking the direct abuse of the person on top of it, the sharpest compression points etc. Most innersprings (available to me, run of the mill S brands and the like) are using unknown multiple layers of poly and convoluted constructions, resulting in the many voices that say "just bought this mattress, already sagging, already has dips, very unhappy". Price is in the $400-500 range. Diy or foam mattress in a box type offerings, even if simple construction using 4-5lb memory foams over decent poly are also $400-500. So based on what my options are, in the comparable $400-500 range a memory foam mattress with 5lb foam sounds a heckuva lot more dependable than the innerspring variations. Other options aside from "S brand" are unknowns, like the hybrid visco/innerspring offerings from companies like night therapy or slumber 1, which also come packed in a box - and then aside from questioning the upper foam quality, I'd also be doubting the durability of mystery spring systems used in the base compared to the tried/true innerspring setups used in traditional innerspring brands. Overall, keeping price to price comparison equal, it appears that better quality foams can be had in memory foam options compared to that of competing innersprings and more likely to succeed. Please clarify if I misunderstand the thought behind this..Thanks.

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