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Inquiry Latex pure bliss 08 Sep 2013 18:54 #16

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Hi mike7,

If all the materials are from latex international then simply use the ILD that you are comfortable with. If PLB has 3 layers and you know the IDL of each layer then you can go online and duplicate it. But as you can see here people ask you the same questions and many of those people have different opinions as to what they like eventually. Sleep ez uses a layering system with 4 3" layers but plb uses 3 layers but different widths. both total 12" Logically one would think there wouldn't be a difference but there is. Maybe its more than just materials like the widths of the layers, or the quality.


A mattress is much more than just the quality of the materials because the quality has little to do with how a mattress feels and performs and more to do with how long it will last. ILD specs alone will also tell you little about how a mattress feels or performs because it's only one of many factors that determines the feel and performance of a mattress including the type of latex, the thickness of each layer, and the type of cover and quilting and many others. You can read a little more about "matching" another mattress in post #9 here and some of the "specs" involved in how a mattress feels and performs post #7 here and post #2 here .

I was reading that healthy back uses pure latex bliss mattresses under a different name, maybe its not the same quality.


It's exactly the same materials ... only the name has changed. Latex International supplies the exact same materials to mattress manufacturers as they use in their own mattresses which are sold under the Pure Late Bliss name. Many manufacturers change the name of a material into their own proprietary name.

I read a post where you tried to breakdown the PLB mattresses by IDL and possibly come close using an online store and although they both get their latex from the same place their IDL's are off by a few one way or the other.


If you use the same layer thicknesses, the same type of foam made by the same manufacturer, and the same type of cover, then you would have a very close "match". ILD's are always in a range (for example blended latex is in a range of about +/- 2) but for the most part these types of very small differences are below the threshold of detection for most people.

As far as reviews go its logical to read what others have to say from the time they purchase to years after including the service the construction and the use. I have communicated with a few online sellers and they want to sell a mattress. If you call telling them you want to duplicate a Pure Latex Bliss Mattress they will find a way to do so or tell you why you shouldn't.


If they are knowledgeable and reputable they will give you accurate information about all the many variables that may be involved and help you set "reasonable expectations" for success. If they aren't reputable and knowledgeable they will tell you whatever they think you want to hear in the hopes of making the sale.

Themattressexpert.com seeems to have a great price on the PLB Mattresses but are they the latest versions, are they ones that were sent back. There are so many companies online telling you how much better their product is yet they all but from the same source.


There are many local retailers that also have lower prices than they are allowed to post online once you are in the store. The Mattress Experts sell only new mattresses (as BobP verified because he purchased from them) . When you are talking to a retailer that is telling you "how much better" their product is then I would just ask them how and why and then use this site (or others) as a "fact check" if you need to.

I appreciate the comments now im more confused You are saying the mattress expert orders from another company? In their website it says they order direct.


I think you may be overthinking things :)

The Mattress Expert is an online company that works in partnership with several retail stores so that people can test some of their mattresses locally and to expedite delivery.

If I tried the Beautiful and I liked it are you saying If I order it online to save approx 950 it may not be what we tried at the store


I don't think anyone is suggesting that. If you test the Beautiful and like it then if you order it online it will be the same mattress. Where you order it from would be a matter of your own personal value equation that would hopefully take into account all the factors and criteria that were most important to you. I think Wavycat was outlining how buying locally was an important part of the "value" of their purchase and personal value equation.

Phoenix
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Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 06:36 #17

I appreciate the comments now im more confused You are saying the mattress expert orders from another company? In their website it says they order direct.
Wavy the price locally for the Beautiful cal king is approx 4300 plus tax ----the price from the mattress expert is approx 3800 no tax and free delivery and setup. I have already tried this model locally. I understand not wanting to take a risk with online purchases where you havnt tried the matttress but this is my point- If I tried the Beautiful and I liked it are you saying If I order it online to save approx 950 it may not be what we tried at the store
thank you )


Mike7,
I do not see anywhere on the The Mattress Expert website where it says they order direct. One of my internet shopping rules before I consider ordering from an etailer is do they have a physical address and is it clearly stated. The Mattress Expert does not. So I emailed him and asked about this. You can read more about it in this thread .

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Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 13:44 #18

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Thanks Bob for the reply --- if you choose the pure bliss mattress and the model it states
"IMPORTANT DELIVERY INFORMATION

FREE DELIVERY & SET-UP...Continental US....all items on this page. NO SALES TAX

All mattresses are freshly made to fill your order."

Maybe not direct but freshly made.
You state one of your rules is to have a physical address and they dont yet in your thread you recommend them.

Frankly this gets stranger the more I research. From what I understand in order to be member here from a retailer they pay a certain fee, Im sure that has to be a conflict of interest for any forum trying to give bias-free advice (which is why I think if actual owners couldreport back it would be a great service).

It gets complicated the more I read and as you can see in these forums, thousands of people are asking the same questions.
If all these companies use the same materials why are there so many different opinions.
I was going to order the Pure Latex Bliss beautiful model until I read there are no comfort exchanges, then as I thought about it I thought I might try locally a layered bed like Saavy Rest and then try to look online for other layered companies.
Maybe 6" with 3" and 3" as in the Beautiful model, feels better because its six inches not two 3inch layers. Maybe the different layers move around in a layered system. I dont know. But if its just about the materials there wouldnt be such diversity .
As i said earlier Plushbeds Sleepez Coypure brooklyn Bedding Saavy Rest and many others get the same latex from the same manufacturer yet their ILDs are different for the same labels firm med soft.
I think I read where you ended up not liking the Pure Latex Bliss model you purchased and that it was in a guest room so it was that important
What do you use currently

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Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 16:40 #19

You state one of your rules is to have a physical address and they dont yet in your thread you recommend them.

As I stated in the other post. he could be more transparent on his website. Before I ordered from him I emailed him and asked him about his current business, where the PLB mattress would be shipped from, and what his comfort exchange policy was. He answers emails within 24 hours or less. I also know that he has been in the mattress business a long time. When I was researching mattresses back in 2004 he answered my questions on his blog, which he still runs.

I think I read where you ended up not liking the Pure Latex Bliss model you purchased and that it was in a guest room so it was that important

The PLB mattress was purchased specifically for our guest room. My wife and I tried out PLB's Pamper, Nature, Nutrition, and Beautiful models. We both agreed that the Nutrition and Beautiful were too soft, the Pamper too firm, and decided on the Nature because it is a medium firm and the price. After we tried it out at home for a few days I thought it was perfect but my wife, who has an artificial hip, found it a tad too firm. We are both side sleepers.

What do you use currently

We currently sleep on a 10 year old 11" Sealy Reflections Newport hybrid latex mattress. I classify it as a hybrid because it has ~2" of poly foam sewn into the topper, latex comfort layers, and a 34 ILD Dunlop latex core. Because of the 2" of poly foam it is a bit softer than the PLB Nature. Maybe luck, or a good batch of poly foam, it has held up well, no body impressions or sagging. Sealy stopped producing the Reflection line a few years ago.

You can try using The Mattress Experts PLB mattress prices as a bargaining tool with your local PLB mattress retailers.

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Last edit: by BobP.

Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 16:58 #20

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thanks again I just received the following response from mattresses.net regarding pure latex bliss --- As I stated earlier reviews are a great unbiased opinion -talking to dealers doesnt necessarily get you the straight answers--- they are in business to make a living- I wouldnt feel comfortable simply buying from a dealer thats trying to reproduce a PLB mattress unless they specifically told me the specs etc... and I read reviews on others that have done this. Can you tell me what they mean"all natural wool inside a bamboo cover" means. The plb cover seemed like it was pretty good.
peace

Besides being a latex mattress manufacturer I am also a PLB authorized dealer which means I have the Beautiful on my showroom floor. No one buys it because I can duplicate the feel for much less. You would be looking around 2 grand to duplicate on using our all natural wool inside a quilted bamboo cover instead of their plain stretch cover that has a chemically treated fire barrier underneath. Call me to discuss options.

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Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 19:34 #21

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Hi mike7,

Frankly this gets stranger the more I research. From what I understand in order to be member here from a retailer they pay a certain fee, Im sure that has to be a conflict of interest for any forum trying to give bias-free advice (which is why I think if actual owners couldreport back it would be a great service).


I think that the best reply to this is in post #5 here .

I certainly have biases but it's towards quality, value, and service, and accurate and meaningful information wherever I see it whether they are a member or not. Membership here is by invitation only and is not open to any retailer or manufacturer who asks. The "value" of any mattress purchase is self evident if you follow the information here and learn "how" to choose (which is the goal of the site) and has nothing to do with membership. There is a big difference between factual information, marketing information, and opinion.

thanks again I just received the following response from mattresses.net regarding pure latex bliss --- As I stated earlier reviews are a great unbiased opinion -talking to dealers doesnt necessarily get you the straight answers--- they are in business to make a living- I wouldnt feel comfortable simply buying from a dealer thats trying to reproduce a PLB mattress unless they specifically told me the specs etc... and I read reviews on others that have done this.


When a reputable manufacturer says something that puts them at risk of a return based on your own perceptions ... it's in their own self interest to give you information that is as accurate as possible or they would lose money. You can read more about "matching" one mattress to another in post #9 here . What they mean is that the mattress they would suggest would be a close approximation or "equivalent" for most people. They are familiar with the "feel" of both mattresses since they carry them both which is why I suggested you call and talk to them (not email).

Can you tell me what they mean"all natural wool inside a bamboo cover" means. The plb cover seemed like it was pretty good.


It means their cover is made from bamboo fiber quilted with wool instead of being a stretch knit with no wool (which would require a fire barrier other than wool). You can read more about the different types of fabrics (including some of the viscose/rayon types of fabrics such as bamboo) in post #7 here . You can read more about the pros and cons of wool quilting in post #6 here .

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 21:31 #22

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Yes however I read a post you made where you stated you can only recommend those that are members. Certainly there are companies that are not members here that use the same quality latex. You certainly are informative and obviously have educated yourself, yet the fact that members pay and their business and yours profit from this can create an uncertainty. Its only human.

"When a reputable manufacturer says something that puts them at risk of a return based on your own perceptions ... it's in their own self interest to give you information that is as accurate as possible or they would lose money"

The company I listed in this post and the Email sent, has a no return policy based on not liking the mattress as do most. Returns without cost are typically for defective not comfort unless you pay a fee. There are posts in this forum that detail returns and how companies deal with them. I don;t think there has been one dealer I communicated with that hasnt claimed their product was the best. In fact Mattresss.nets website comments a few other companies claiming they are not as good as they are. To claim you are a PLB dealer and you never sell them because you can duplicate the same mattress probably wouldnt make Pure Latex Bliss very happy.
In fact you have responded several times with those asking to duplicate the matttress, claiming you can come close based on the ILD. And there are posts here where people have asked Mattress.net to duplicate one they saw in a showroom and the result was not what they wanted. One was from member"pea" that wanted a mattress from CleanBedroom and Mattress.net stated they could duplicate it, It arrived and and was firmer than expected, wishing they would have purchased the original mattress from the store. Your response was a lil confusing as you have stated in responses here if the materials are the same it should feel the same yet your response to that post was to suggest that there are many factors that go into the feel and performance, which sounds like you going in circles. The person wanted a duplicate of a mattress she tried at a local store and like my request Mattress.net said they would duplicate it. But they didnt. This is why I think people become more confused here. Your response seems as if the construction is far more complicated than some of your other responses. You then told the person that at least it was too firm rather than too soft as they could try and fix it. Well yes by paying more money. It seemed that the customer wasnt happy and the company didnt provide what they wanted. This again is why Im reluctant to try online dealers without a comfort period and why some are confused reading all the posts. You are the one answering these people and yet when you are asked a question like this you know that some members have had issues with duplicating what they tried in the showroom. An unbiased response I would think based on your experience like the member I mentioned would have included their experience.

Can you tell me how these companies can get their latex from the same manufacturer and get different idl ratings --- Latex International has to have some way of labeling their layers and differentiate between firm med and soft

Also given your posts you always suggest people try their mattresses locally, would you trust an online company claiming they can duplicate the same matttress without trying it or without a free return policy?

Thanks again and I do appreciate your efforts on this site

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Last edit: by mike7.

Inquiry Latex pure bliss 09 Sep 2013 22:53 #23

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Hi mike7,

I wonder how much of my replies you are really reading and I suppose it's possible to distrust or misread anything and believe that there is simply nobody left in the world that has any interest in helping others or that because they earn an income from their efforts that nothing they say or share should be trusted. That's not a "skin" I would want to live in and I would wonder what it must be like to live with that kind of worldview. Each person of course has the freedom to choose their own belief system and what kind of information makes sense to them but i certainly don't share your approach or beliefs.

In my view ... it would be unethical for anyone to spend 16 hours a day for 3 years without any possibility of a reward that could allow their family to survive. This is not a hobby although it is a labor of love. To suggest or imply that a business plan or ability to make money from legitimate efforts to help people ... especially when the information provided here is self evident and doesn't need any "recommendations" and has no requirement to "trust" anything or anyone at all .. somehow implies bias or agenda when all the evidence of over 22,000 pages on the site shows something else is somewhat surprising to me. That's a fairly "jaded" approach IMO.

If you were to look at just the posts from today alone you will find examples of people who have found and purchased mattress from local retailers based on the information provided here and made great purchases because they learned how to choose. None of this required anything but the ability to decide for themselves based on the facts, their own personal value equation, and on knowing "how" to choose instead of following someone's else's advice on "what" to choose.

You would also have read that I don't recommend any mattresses at all for anyone (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ) or make final choices for anyone (see post #2 here ) ... and that I limit my efforts to pointing the members here in the direction of retailers or manufacturers that may have better quality and value available based on their own personal value equation and on knowing how to make more informed choices.

The "official" recommendation of the members of this site is something they have earned and they are "among" the best in the industry ... but you can also read in the hundreds of lists throughout the forum about many other manufacturers or retailers I think highly of who are not members here ... yet. The "official" recommendation is a way of recognizing the manufacturers and retailers who are able and willing to compete with the best in the country, who support the efforts and time it takes to put a site like this together and maintain it, and have also agreed to provide benefits to the members here as a result of their membership.

The company I listed in this post and the Email sent, has a no return policy based on not liking the mattress as do most. Returns without cost are typically for defective not comfort unless you pay a fee. There are posts in this forum that detail returns and how companies deal with them. I don;t think there has been one dealer I communicated with that hasnt claimed their product was the best. In fact Mattresss.nets website comments a few other companies claiming they are not as good as they are. To claim you are a PLB dealer and you never sell them because you can duplicate the same mattress probably wouldnt make Pure Latex Bliss very happy. In fact you have responded several times with those asking to duplicate the matttress, claiming you can come close based on the ILD.


Once again you are not reading the replies or taking "snippets" out of context. Mattresses.net has a 60 day return policy on their standard mattresses and all it costs is shipping. Many other online manufacturers have good return policies as well. The exception to most online companies return policies is a custom built mattress that doesn't use their standard layering and is built to be unique requirements of a specific customer. I have also never said that any mattress (including PLB) can be "duplicated" based on ILD's alone ... as a matter of fact quite the opposite (including in my replies to you).

Can you tell me how these companies can get their latex from the same manufacturer and get different idl ratings --- Latex International has to have some way of labeling their layers and differentiate between firm med and soft


Again this isn't the case and they don't get different ILD ratings if the latex is the same type and comes from the same manufacturer. I've already answered this exact same question in a previous reply to you but for some reason you don't seem to have read it.

Also given your posts you always suggest people try their mattresses locally, would you trust an online company claiming they can duplicate the same mattress without trying it or without a free return policy?


That would depend on the specifics of the manufacturer or retailer, the criteria of my personal value equation, my knowledge level, and on my own informed "best judgement". I know that if a manufacturer was familiar with both mattresses and had compared them that the odds of success would be much higher but I don't see things in "black and white" or absolute terms as much as you appear to do and I also realize that there is no certainty with anything. I would see it as a question of the risk I was willing to take compared to the potential "rewards" and this too would be part of my personal value equation.

In the end ... you can either see the information here for what it is and read the replies and links more carefully than you are or you can simply ignore some or all of it and purchase a mattress using any criteria or method of evaluating a purchase that you believe in. That part is up to you but it certainly won't change the information that I make freely available to anyone who wants to use their own discernment and can use the information here as a way to help them make more informed choices

What you do with this information or which parts of it you trust or don't is entirely up to you and it's here for you to use in whatever way you see fit.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Inquiry Latex pure bliss 10 Sep 2013 09:11 #24

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I dont think you are doing anything unethical and Im sure you are doing this with the best intentions. Just to respond to your post
When I mention that Mattress.net doesnt have a return policy you respond seemingly in defense---First of all my mattress would be custom and secondly most people dont think of paying shipping charges both ways as a free return.

Next you post - I have also never said that any mattress (including PLB) can be "duplicated" based on ILD's alone ... as a matter of fact quite the opposite (including in my replies to you).---but you did say
-If you use the same layer thicknesses, the same type of foam made by the same manufacturer, and the same type of cover, then you would have a very close "match". ILD's are always in a range (for example blended latex is in a range of about +/- 2)

When you get a request asking about a company or mattress it seems based on your experience you would include those like the one I mentioned where the person purchased a mattress from the same company I was asking about and wished they went with the one at the store even though the company said they could duplicate it. Thats the point I was making that you read these posts and thus gain knowledge as to experience these people have. Yet when I asked you about the company and duplication you didnt mention it. On mattress.net they dont even use Latex International which makes PLB, thus given your post how can they duplicate it? This is why I say it gets confusing with your posts.

When I ask you if you would buy a mattress not tested in person your response is that it would depend on the manufacturer based on knowledge. Well thats why people are here trying to learn. But your risk and rewards statement doesnt make sense when the reward is saving dollars and they arent happy with a mattress. Im trying to find the knowledge to allow me to purchase online but Im having to read the posts of those with experience seems to be the best way.

You seem to be taking this in a personal way. Im simply an outsider reading the posts and those are observations nothing more. I think you provide a great forum and its helped people make decisions.

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Inquiry Latex pure bliss 10 Sep 2013 17:54 #25

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Hi mike7,

When I mention that Mattress.net doesnt have a return policy you respond seemingly in defense---First of all my mattress would be custom and secondly most people dont think of paying shipping charges both ways as a free return.


There is really no such thing as a 'free" return because all shipping changes in both directions and any costs for a return are included somewhere in the cost of the mattress

Just to use a simple example (in this case for a "finished" mattress where the shipping costs are higher vs a mattress that can be shipped through UPS).

For the sake of this example I'll make a few assumptions just to make the math easier and to illustrate the point. The assumptions are ...

1. The business needs a 50% margin (the percentage of the sale that is their gross profit) on their "good" sales to maintain the business.
2. The time and labor involved in a return is 15% of the price of the mattress.
3. They have a 10% return rate.
4. Original shipping of the mattress is $200
5. Return shipping for refunds is $200
6. They don't resell their returns and just dispose of the mattress.
7. The wholesale cost of the mattress and shipping to get the mattress to the showroom is $500.
8. The selling price of the mattress @ 50% margin would be $1000 plus any additional amount that would cover any additional costs.

This means that they could sell this mattress for $1000 if the customer was responsible for the original shipping, any return shipping, and a "restocking fee" of 15%.

The customer would pay $1200 for the mattress if the original shipping was free but wasn't included in the refund and they were also responsible for the original shipping cost plus the return shipping and restocking fees in the case of a refund.

If a customer refund included the original shipping cost and the company also paid for the return shipping and there was no restocking fee deducted ... then the price of the mattress would be based on the "rough" math here ...

Price calculation for a mattress where there is free shipping and a full refund of the purchase price including shipping and no restocking.

$5000 for the wholesale cost of 10 mattresses.
$2000 for the original shipping cost of 10 mattresses.
$200 for the return shipping of 1 refunded mattress.
$150 for the time and labor involved in returning 1 mattress (assuming that returns aren't used as a profit center)
$0 recovery of the wholesale cost of a returned mattress.
$4500 (@ 50% margin) profit on the 9 "good sales".
______

$11850 total costs or profit required for the 9 "good sales"
11850.00 / 9 = $1316.67 would now be the selling price of the 9 mattress that aren't refunded.

In the first case ... they would advertise a selling price of $1000 plus shipping. Their return policy would say "full refund less shipping costs and a 15% restocking fee". This would be attractive to many consumers that didn't know to factor in the other costs involved and were only "price matching" and compared this mattress to anther one that had the additional costs built in.

In the second case ... they would advertise the same mattress for $1316.67 and as part of the main page they could say "free shipping in both directions and a full refund with no cost to the customer". This would be attractive to consumers that were less risk tolerant but didn't realize that they were still paying for the cost of returns for themselves and other consumers as well.

With a free return ... the customers that don't return a mattress (the 90%) would be paying for the costs involved for the 10% who do.

There are pros and cons to each.

If I was a customer that had high confidence that the mattress I was buying would work well for me and was willing to take on the risk of the greater costs if I was wrong then I wouldn't want to pay for the cost of returns for other people. In this case ... my "fixed cost' would be the price of the mattress plus shipping which would be $1200.00.

If I was wrong and needed to return it then that same mattress would end up costing me $1550.00 but this would have been a risk I knew about when I made the purchase and was willing to take on.

If I was a customer that was less risk tolerant or not as confident that the mattress would be suitable for me then I would probably choose the higher cost of $1316.67 because it would be the maximum cost I would pay for the mattress regardless of whether I returned it or not.

In other words ... all exchange policies and refund policies or other business costs are included somewhere in the cost of buying a mattress and getting it to the customer. In the case of "free" refunds or exchanges where the customer pays nothing then the customers that make better choices that don't need to return the mattress pay for the costs involved in the ones that do. The choice between these two different ways of pricing a mattress is up to a business and how they choose to market their mattresses and the choice between a business that used one business model over another would part of each person's "personal value equation" and risk tolerance.

Next you post - I have also never said that any mattress (including PLB) can be "duplicated" based on ILD's alone ... as a matter of fact quite the opposite (including in my replies to you).---but you did say
-If you use the same layer thicknesses, the same type of foam made by the same manufacturer, and the same type of cover, then you would have a very close "match". ILD's are always in a range (for example blended latex is in a range of about +/- 2)


Now you are quoting me correctly ... but not the first time. There is a big difference in trying to duplicate a mattress based on ILD alone and duplicating a mattress where all the components and specs are the same. I would strongly discourage the belief that the first was possible or likely because it simply isn't true and would lead to consumer expectations that weren't realistic. The second would mean that the two mattresses were virtually identical but the problem here is the ability to find out all the specs of the original mattress and then make sure that the same or functionally identical components and materials from the same supplier in the same layer thicknesses and ILD's and design are available from the manufacturer or retailer you were dealing with. If the components or materials weren't exactly the same then you would be looking at a mattress that "approximated" the mattress you were trying to "duplicate" in one or more ways (which were outlined in my previous link in post #9 here ).

When I mention that Mattress.net doesnt have a return policy you respond seemingly in defense---First of all my mattress would be custom and secondly most people dont think of paying shipping charges both ways as a free return.


Facts don't need "defending" ... but statements such as these or are only "partly accurate" do need correcting so that others who read them don't make the mistake of thinking that what you are saying is completely accurate. In other words ... they do have a return policy for their "standard" designs and if a "standard" design is functionally equivalent to a mattress that you hope to approximate then there would be a return policy. If either they or you believed that you wanted to buy a mattress that was exactly the same in all ways and they had access to all the components and layers that made this possible in a custom design or if they had to customize one of their standard designs in a way that made it unique to you because you both thought it would be "closer" to the mattress you wanted to "duplicate" even if it wasn't exactly the same ... then there would also be no returns. The choice would be up to each customer to decide whether the risk was worth the reward based on the criteria of their own personal value equation and risk tolerance. So the return policy would depend on the choices you made.

When I ask you if you would buy a mattress not tested in person your response is that it would depend on the manufacturer based on knowledge. Well thats why people are here trying to learn. But your risk and rewards statement doesnt make sense when the reward is saving dollars and they arent happy with a mattress.


Hopefully with the previous example it now makes more sense to you. There are no "certainties" when you are buying a mattress ... only degrees of risk. The goal of this site is to help each person understand the risk involved in every purchase and assess their own risk tolerance and the likelihood of making a choice that is "less than ideal" in a more realistic way and recognize and assess the risk involved in any purchase. This way they will have more realistic expectations and can replace hindsight with foresight. Everything is a matter of "how much risk" is involved and the benefits connected to that risk and how well a consumer anticipates and thinks through all the parts of a mattress purchase that they may not fully understand or anticipate so that price alone isn't mistaken for the "value" of a purchase.

This is the reason that I refer to each person's "personal value equation" so often because most consumers have come to believe that a manufacturer or retailer is somehow responsible for what they choose or can somehow predict the feel or performance of any mattress for a specific person when in fact there is no such formula or certainty and there are so many variables that only each person's personal experience (before or after a purchase) can really know whether a mattress is suitable for them. A consumer is always responsible for their choices and the risks they take and a manufacturer's suggestions are based on the "averages" of people with similar body types, sleeping styles, and circumstances. The success of any online purchase will depend on how well you fit into the averages they use, their experience, knowledge, and "educated intuition", and on the accuracy of the information you provide them.

It's not likely you will be able to learn enough to make a mattress choice based on "theory" or "specs" without a great deal of experience lying on many combinations of materials and layers and the perseverance and learning it would take to come anywhere close to having the skill to design your own mattress (or duplicate another one) based on specs alone. This can be a lifetime study and even those with decades of experience are still going through a learning curve and are still surprised in many cases when a new mattress they design doesn't feel anything like what they thought it would. This is why I stress so strongly that your own objective and careful testing is so important and beyond this then "dealing with an expert" that already knows what you would otherwise have to learn along with good recourse if you are uncertain about your choice is the most effective approach. Consumers who believe that a manufacturer or retailer has a "crystal ball" that can predict with any certainty how a mattress will feel or perform for them and don't include the risk of a return in and their recourse in their "value equation" or the benefit of having a way to make changes to the mattress if it needs to be "fine tuned" are the ones who are most often disappointed ... and who tend to blame a manufacturer for the choices they alone are responsible for making.

Im trying to find the knowledge to allow me to purchase online but Im having to read the posts of those with experience seems to be the best way.


None of the members here who have purchased a mattress or even dozens combined who have purchased the same mattress as a group will have anywhere near the knowledge of a manufacturer or retailer about their own mattresses or have the ability to provide you with guidance that is as meaningful for any specific person. Reading reviews and believing that anyone else's experience can or will apply to you is one of the biggest mistakes that consumers make when they are buying a mattress (see post #13 here ). Each person will interact differently with the same mattress and have a different set of perceptions and even a few dozen "reviews" won't provide you with anything close to the kind of guidance and accurate information that you can get from a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced manufacturer who is drawing on the experiences of thousands of their customers.

You seem to be taking this in a personal way. Im simply an outsider reading the posts and those are observations nothing more. I think you provide a great forum and its helped people make decisions.


None of this is personal ... just part of the educational function of the forum.

Part of the purpose of the forum is to help "correct" some of the assumptions that many consumers or members here make when they are shopping for a mattress and to help them better assess the accuracy of some of the information (or assumptions or implications) of what they read here.

Each post like some of yours provides a chance to respond in a way that can help others avoid any of the same assumptions and use what you have written to help them look at a mattress purchase in a different way that is much more likely to lead to realistic expectations, make more informed decisions, and have much higher odds of success.

Phoenix
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