TOPIC:

I tried out a Savvy Rest that I absolutely love. That said.. after reading here, I am interested in seeing if SleepEz has a better deal on something that may be similar (I don't know how to tell). I understand even the same models can differ, but I am looking for something that matches the showroom Savvy Rest talalay I tried. The Savvy Rest Model I tried and liked was the Serenity.

My only concerns are
- No synthetic fire proofing (wool cover)
- Won't sag much within the first few months.

Is there any way to find a similar build through SleepEz for less money?

Hi Kevinmay,

Yes ... SleepEz has mattresses that use the same types, blend, and quality of latex as the latex used in the Savvy Rest and have the same design (two, three, or four 3" layers of latex inside a zip cover) although SleepEz offers other designs as well. They also have an organic wool quilted zip cover that is similar although there may be some differences between them in terms of the amount of wool or the thickness or the specifics of the organic fabric.

How you tell is to compare apples to apples based on the type of latex in each and on the type of cover and quilting (which would need a conversation with each manufacturer).

The only other difference would be the firmness level of each layer of latex and in this the choices would be similar as well. One of SleepEz's Talalay latex suppliers is the same as Savvy Rest (Radium) and they also can provide Talalay latex made by Latex International as well. SleepEz also offers 100% natural Dunlop as well as organic Dunlop that is very similar in quality to the Dunlop used by Savvy Rest although their suppliers may be different (Savvy Rest uses CoCo Latex and SleepEz uses Latex Green for their Dunlop).

A conversation with SleepEz will also go a long way towards answering your questions at the level of detail that is important to you (including letting them know the specific layering that you preferred in the Savvy Rest mattress) so you can make a final choice that is best for you.

Phoenix

Thank you, Phoenix.

Is there anything in particular that I may want to find out (the types of layers in the Savvy Rest model, etc.) before calling SleepEz?

Hi Kevinmay,

Savvy Rest only has two options in terms of the type of latex they offer. One of these is 100% natural Talalay and they recently changed to Radium as their supplier. Radium is one of the Talalay options that SleepEz offers as well. The other option they offer is 100% natural Dunlop that is organic certified and is supplied by CoCo Latex. SleepEz also offers 100% natural Dunlop but theirs is made by Latex Green and is only available in certified organic with a special order. Latex Green and CoCo latex are both high quality Dunlop latex manufacturers and their products are closely equivalent in terms of quality and performance. If the organic certification is not as important to you ... then SleepEz also offers 100% natural Dunlop also made by Latex Green as their standard layering that has the same performance and properties as organic except it doesn't have the organic certification and is a lower cost. SleepEz also offers blended talalay for those where 100% natural Talalay is not as important. You can read more about the different types of latex including organic in post #6 here .

To compare the covers you would need to know the type and amount of the wool that was used in each and the specifics of the organic cotton that is used in each on each side of the wool quilting. This can be very technical as you can see here and the law of diminishing returns may apply because both covers use high quality materials (organic wool and organic cotton) and while there would likely be differences between them that can affect the cost of the cover, it may not make a significant difference in how each mattress actually feels and performs (see post #31 here for more about how their covers compare)

Finally ... there is the issue of comparing the softness and firmness of the latex in each layer. To do this you would need to know the density or ILD range of the Dunlop latex or the ILD range of the Talalay latex. ILD is not an exact specification and Dunlop in particular can vary much more than Talalay even across the surface of the same layer. ILD is not really comparable between Dunlop and Talalay because ILD is only one of several factors that contributes to the softness of the mattress but if you are comparing Talalay made by the same manufacturer and they are in the same range they would be closely comparable. In many cases the density of Dunlop is a more accurate way to compare the relative softness levels between Dunlop manufacturers but in general a soft with one Dunlop manufacturer would be roughly comparable to a soft with another manufacturer as well (or to a similar density) within a larger variance than with Talalay.

So to have a close approximation between two mattresses in terms of the latex (excluding the effect of the cover) ... you would need to use the same thickness of layers in the same material with a comparable softness level (ILD in the case of Talalay and ILD, density, or "word rating" in the case of Dunlop). Of course this would require knowing the firmness/softness of each layer at Savvy Rest and the equivalent that was available at SleepEz.

Savvy Rest doesn't usually provide exact specs for ILD (and it's not necessary with a local purchase because this is a "comfort spec" that you can test yourself and has nothing to do with the quality of the material) but you can see the range for each of their materials in post #2 here .

So overall ... you would be able to come very close with the Talalay (which is made by the same manufacturer in both cases) and "fairly close" with the Dunlop as well so the variances would be slight differences in the ILD of each layer and in the effect of the cover itself.

To keep it simple though ... when you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart (which would certainly include SleepEZ) and who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and "feel" of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness, etc) and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about "matching" their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with such as the Savvy Rest) than anyone else.

SleepEz also has a more generous exchange and return policy than Savvy Rest which may also be an important part of your final choice between them along with the "value" you attach to being able to test a local mattress in person vs a close approximation that you can't test in person before an online purchase.

Phoenix

Hi Kevinmay/ Phoenix - I am also looking into comparing between SleepEZ and Savvy Rest. I am leaning towards ordering online through SleepEZ because of the cost. Mattresses.net comes a close second only because of less customizable options. Like most folks here I want to try and make the right choice in the first shot if possible

I talked to Shawn from SleepEZ and he gave me the following ILDs for both their blended talalay and 100% natural dunlop:
Soft: 19-20
Medium: 30-32
Firm: 38-40
XFirm: 44

I have three questions:
1. We thought the "Soft" Talalay in SavvyRest (cant remember blended or 100% natural) was too soft for us in the top layer, so is it absolutely safe to assume the "soft" blended talalay from SleepEz would also be too soft? Another point of comparison is that, we did not like the "Latex Supreme" mattress from the Original Mattress Factory which has a top 2" comfort layer of blended talalay with 17-21 ILD although they probably source their latex from a different company than SleepEZ/ Savvy Rest

2. Assuming "soft" might be too soft, would it be a decent strategy to go with two 3-inch layers of "Medium" Talalay and "Firm" Talalay and supplement with a 2" mattress topper in the future if we find this combination too firm? We are both 140 lbs and 120 lbs respectively, so I am assuming two layers should give us enough support, but wanted to confirm.

3. If two 3-inch layers might suffice, would it be better to get a "Firm" Talalay as the bottom layer or "Firm" Dunlop? From the reading I have done it seems that Dunlop will be firmer than Talalay and is the material of choice for mattress cores for good support, but not sure if it would be too hard for our case with just two layers.

Thanks in advance for reading this.

Hi hiddenspring,

The first thing I would consider is that ILD is not exact so a layer that is rated at a specific ILD may not be exactly the same as another that has the same rating (see post #6 here ). This is just the natural variance of the production process.

Outside of the variance in ILD in each layer ... ILD differences in a range of 2 or 3 (or sometimes more) wouldn't be detectable for most people.

ILD is also only one of the specs that leads to the perception of softness/firmness so blended and 100% natural Talalay that have the same ILD may feel different because they have a different density and compression modulus.

1. We thought the "Soft" Talalay in SavvyRest (cant remember blended or 100% natural) was too soft for us in the top layer, so is it absolutely safe to assume the "soft" blended talalay from SleepEz would also be too soft? Another point of comparison is that, we did not like the "Latex Supreme" mattress from the Original Mattress Factory which has a top 2" comfort layer of blended talalay with 17-21 ILD although they probably source their latex from a different company than SleepEZ/ Savvy Rest

The Savvy Rest Talalay is 100% natural (they don't offer blended as an option). I would also remember though that all the layers in a mattress interact with every other layer so it would only be "safe" to make an assumption that a slightly lower ILD would feel softer if the other two layers were identical. A softer middle layer would affect the feel of the top layer and it would feel softer than another mattress with a firmer middle layer even if the top layer was the same. If the other layers are "close" though ... then it's likely that the softer top layer would be also be too soft based on your feedback. The latex supreme is a different construction with different layering so that alone would make a difference even if the top layer was the same but in addition to the differences in the design the top layer in the Supreme is also a different thickness and is also convoluted so it wouldn't be directly comparable to a 3" layer of solid Talalay (even if the layers below it were the same). In addition to this, OMF puts their latex mattress on an "active" box spring which will also change the feel of the mattress compared to the same mattress that is tested on a solid foundation that doesn't flex. You can read more about the various factors that contribute to the "softness" of an individual layer in post #2 here .

2. Assuming "soft" might be too soft, would it be a decent strategy to go with two 3-inch layers of "Medium" Talalay and "Firm" Talalay and supplement with a 2" mattress topper in the future if we find this combination too firm? We are both 140 lbs and 120 lbs respectively, so I am assuming two layers should give us enough support, but wanted to confirm.

Yes ... a firmer top layer would create a more firm sleeping surface and the other way to increase the firmness is to decrease the thickness of the soft top layer so it is closer to the firmer layers below it (you can read more about the effect of thickness on the softness and response of a mattress in post #14 here ). If a mattress is too firm then adding a topper in a suitable thickness and softness is certainly a valid way to increase the softness of the comfort layers yes but the key is to choose the thickness and firmness of the topper based on your actual experience after you have slept on the mattress instead of "theory" (there are some topper guidelines in post #2 here )

3. If two 3-inch layers might suffice, would it be better to get a "Firm" Talalay as the bottom layer or "Firm" Dunlop? From the reading I have done it seems that Dunlop will be firmer than Talalay and is the material of choice for mattress cores for good support, but not sure if it would be too hard for our case with just two layers.

A two layer mattress will be different from a 3 layer mattress (or any thicker latex mattress) even if the top two layers in both are the same. Dunlop has a higher compression modulus than Talalay so it "feels" firmer with deeper compression (past 25%) than Talalay but it will also be softer with shallower compression that is less than 25%. Both come in a range of firmness levels and both types of latex in the "right" layering can provide good pressure relief and good alignment in a suitably designed mattress. "Alignment" (how evenly you sink in to a mattress) is always the goal and "support" or firmness is just a means to an end. The choice between Dunlop and Talalay would be a preference rather than a "better worse" choice both in the comfort layers and the support layers because both are available in softer and firmer versions. You can read a little more about the difference between them in post #7 here .

If you are seriously considering a 6" mattress with two layers then I would specifically test this (Savvy Rest has this option available) because it may feel significantly different from a thicker mattress with 3 layers (although you are both lighter and would compress the mattress less so the differences may be less for you). With your lighter weight 6" may work well but it will certainly be "different" from the mattresses you have tested.

If you have personal experience with a specific layering then smaller changes in firmness levels, layer thickness, layer combinations are easier to predict but multiple differences or larger changes in design (such as removing a complete layer) will have a compounding effect and make comparisons more difficult. In most cases smaller differences in design aren't that important to most people and are well within the wider "range" that works well for them but for those who are more sensitive to smaller differences in two mattresses or if the differences are more a single small difference then it can result in two mattresses that can feel quite different for some people (even though others may not notice any significant difference at all).

For the most part and for most people ... close approximations to something you have tested would be "close enough" and trying to make comparisons that are more finely detailed or "granular" than is realistically possible (or trying to predict the "feel" of a mattress that is significantly different from what you have tested) can be an exercise in frustration because of all the many variables involved.

Phoenix

Hi Kevinmay - did you finalize your mattress and if so, what are you thinking of getting? We are almost there and thinking of a SleepEz 9 inch (or 9000 series) with firm/medium/soft.

Phoenix - thanks for your wonderful comments - they have always helped us (and I am sure many others) to make better decisions. I totally agree with your point that it will be frustrating (and unnecessary) to match or make comparisons between mattresses down to the fine details.

I remember that at SavvyRest we tested the 6 inch (firm/ medium) and it felt decent to us. The 6 inch (soft/firm) and (soft/medium) felt too soft. Based on that my guess is soft on the top layer may not work in a 6 inch design. We tried the 9 inch design and felt the soft on the top was too soft but we didn't really try any combinations there mainly because of the price point was above our budget.

But that said, we had been to "Healthy Back" after that and their basic model - Peace - was a 6" Firm Talalay support + 1" Celsion Talalay Latex was too hard for us. They do not disclose ILDs and such but their 6" Regular Talalay support + 3" Celsion Talalay Latex (called Essence) was the best for us. It seems like this might be some combination of Medium and Softer Talalay. Would you (or anyone on this forum) have more details about this? If this is the case (and assuming a 2-4 range of ILDs should be acceptable for most people within a category of firmness) I feel comfortable going with the 9 inch with just a 2 inch top soft latex which has the highest chance of working.

Also does anyone have comments about the 1 inch wool-cotton cover vs. the flat cotton (with rayon FR backing) cover that SleepEz has?

Thanks.

Hi hiddenspring,

But that said, we had been to "Healthy Back" after that and their basic model - Peace - was a 6" Firm Talalay support + 1" Celsion Talalay Latex was too hard for us. They do not disclose ILDs and such but their 6" Regular Talalay support + 3" Celsion Talalay Latex (called Essence) was the best for us.

You can see some of the specs for the equivalent PLB mattresses in post #1 here except the Healthy Back mattresses use Celsion in the top layer rather than regular Talalay. I'm not sure if their bottom 1" layer still uses firm polyfoam (like the first generation PLB mattresses) or if they have replaced it with firm Talalay (like the second generation PLB mattresses). You can see here that all the third generation PLB mattresses have replaced the 19 ILD Talalay with 21 ILD Celsion (now called Talalay GL fast response by Latex international and Active Fusion fast response by PLB) but in spite of all of this ... post #11 here includes information that was supplied by Healthy Back about the Essence that indicates that the Celsion layer is 15 ILD so the most reliable way to know would be accurate information from Healthy Back. I should also mention though that "comfort specs" are not really important to know with local testing because they have nothing to do with the quality of the material and softness and firmness can be "felt" with testing more effectively than by providing ILD specs so many local retailers don't provide this because they realize that ILD specs are not a necessary spec for a customer to know.

I should also mention that the Peace uses synthetic Dunlop in the support core and the Serenity is the same construction except it uses the 40 ILD Talalay in the support core instead of synthetic Dunlop.

Also does anyone have comments about the 1 inch wool-cotton cover vs. the flat cotton (with rayon FR backing) cover that SleepEz has?

They would be the most reliable source of information about the differences between their covers but in general terms ... the wool quilted cover is a higher cost and quality cover and provides the temperature regulating benefits of wool. It also is used as the fire barrier so it doesn't need the fire barrier that is used with the stretch knit cover.

The stretch knit cover is thinner and more stretchy and would have a little less effect on the "feel" of the latex below it.

The wool quilted cover would also be necessary if you wanted a split top layer because the unquilted stretch knit cover is too thin to even out the feel of the split and they don't recommend using it with a split top layer.

Phoenix

Phoenix - thanks for the specs on the Healthyback mattresses. I can see now why the Peace and Serenity were much firmer for our liking and Essence was the best. Pristine (or sometimes called Elegance?) was softer than we would like.

Anyway - I went ahead and looked at one of your earlier posts where you calculate average ILD in the top 40% for pressure relief and average ILD in the bottom 75% for support as EXAMPLE ONLY illustrations - and although I realize I am heading towards a treacherous slope I couldn't help making those calculations (being an engineer) for my situation

Here's what I looked at: (all layers from top to bottom)
1) Sleep EZ 9000 (2/3/3 inches - S/M/F - 19.5/31/39 ILD). ILD ratings are average of what Shawn told me over the phone
2) Sleep EZ 10000 (3/3/3 inches - S/M/F - 19.5/31/39 ILD).
3) Essence based on Jwaldorfs numbers (1/2/6/1 inches - 21/28/36/40 ILD)
4) Essence based on Sunlovers numbers (1/2/6/1 inches - 15/24/36/40 ILD)
5) Sleep EZ 7000 (3/3 inches - M/F - 31/39 ILD)
6) Sleep EZ 9000 (2/3/3 inches - M/M/F - 31/31/39 ILD)

And here's what I got for average ILDs in top 40%, bottom 75%:
1) 23.8, 35
2) 21.4, 33.2
3) 28.3, 36
4) 24.8, 35.7
5) 31, 36.3
6) 31, 35

Support wise, they are all roughly the same and great options. I think it makes sense that the 10000 is softer than the 9000 but only slightly while there is a decent jump from 9000 to 7000. That provides reassurance that going for a 9000 with a soft on top may work better for our liking. And is more comparable to Essence (but only if using Sunlovers numbers). Using Jwaldorfs numbers indicates 9000 might be too soft and 7000 too hard. Assuming ofcourse within +/- 2 ILDs not much difference is felt and Dunlop/ Talalay are interchangeable which is not really the case.

Anyway numbers aside (which provide only a theoretical basis at best and could be misleading) I am pretty much set with going for the 9000 with S/M/F for both me and my wife, except not sure what would be the best recourse if we find it too soft and 9000 with M/M/F will be too hard. Any thoughts?

Also this is really a question for SleepEz which I will ask on the phone, but does the wool-cotton cover make the feel softer or firmer compared to just lying on the latex layers for a give configuration of layers?

Hi hiddenspring,

I can tell you're an engineer and you're right these kind of calculations can head down a very slippery and "uncertain" slope because they don't include several variables (including how far each part of your body actually sinks into the mattress or layer or how "average" ILD's with progressively firmer ILD's actually compress compared to single layers that are all the same ILD). Multiple layers with progressive firmness would have a higher compression modulus (which is the rate that a foam gets firmer with deeper compression) but at least it illustrates a point.

Anyway numbers aside (which provide only a theoretical basis at best and could be misleading) I am pretty much set with going for the 9000 with S/M/F for both me and my wife, except not sure what would be the best recourse if we find it too soft and 9000 with M/M/F will be too hard. Any thoughts?

The "in between" for these would be S/F/M because the firmer second layer would increase the firmness of the top few inches of the mattress. The firmer middle layer would affect both the firmness of the cradle (the amount you sink into the mattress) and would also increase the support. The deeper layers always compress relatively less than the middle or top layer because latex foam (and all foams) will absorb some of the energy (hysteresis) as the forces move through the mattress unlike a steel spring which passes almost all the energy through from the top to the bottom. The compression forces also spread out as they travel through the mattress so any energy that reaches the bottom layer will have spread out over a wider surface area as well. In other words the layers that are used for "averages" would also need to be weighted according to how much of the compression forces actually reached them and the surface area that was compressing at each level of the mattress.

Phoenix