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Re: Due diligence on pocket coil mattresses 15 Nov 2011 23:39 #16

  • SleeplessinDallas
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Marvelous! Well, this year has been a process of elimination if nothing else! No more big brand names and big chain stores for me. End of story- unless it's CostCo only b/c I can return forever and it's inexpensive if that were a route we decided to go b/c it would still be financially safe. Although, still a headache if you keep having to return and swap.

So- no more Westin Heavenly beds, no more S brands, no memory foam, and unfortunately from what I can tell, no 100% solid latex mattresses for us either- not as a result of quality, just feel. Maybe we just never got it right, but it was becoming too much hassle.

But- I do love latex in the comfort layer it seems. And to date, I think this combo of high quality pocket coils + latex on top seems to be a worthy contender. I like the quality of products and frankly the simplicity of design and understanding what's inside. And being able to see what's inside!

So- I'll focus in on pricing with Sovn, Sleep Works, etc.... and talk with some local manufacturers about this kind of product as well and go from there!

Many thanks Phoenix!!!!!

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Re: Due diligence on pocket coil mattresses 16 Nov 2011 00:31 #17

  • SleeplessinDallas
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Ok. Not to digress here. But- is it safe to say that this kind of set up (high quality coils + ~2" of natural latex) will be more durable and keep it's shape/feel/no sag longer than the Tempurpedic Bellafina? Or should that one stay in the race a little longer?

Or would it be wiser to proceed with the coils + latex and add 1" of memory foam if I still need something 'softer'?

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Re: Due diligence on pocket coil mattresses 16 Nov 2011 01:17 #18

  • phoenix
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Hi Sleepless,

Regarding the Bellafina vs the Berkeley Ergonomics ... there are some "unknowns" in the equation ... so lets look at it layer by layer.

The BellaFina core is high quality polyfoam. In the BE its high quality pocket coils. This one is a tossup in terms of durability as the bottom of the mattress is not the weak link in either.

The transition layer in the Bellafina is the latex ... but the type is unknown. It is almost certainly a lower quality of latex which would be either SBR Dunlop or Blended Dunlop. In the BE ... the transition layer is the upper part of the coils. I would also call this a tossup. If the Bellafina had a 100% NR Dunlop transition layer, I would give it the edge but it didn't weigh out at what would be typical for this. If it had all SBR latex or used latex with some type of fillers, then I would give the BE the edge.

In the comfort layer, the Bellafina has 5.3 lb memory foam ... one of the higher qualities of memory foam. In the BE there is 100% NR talalay 25 ILD. Part of the "unknown" in this is that the NR talalay has not been out long enough to really know for sure what the typical experience really is over the long term. My guess is that this is a tossup as well with perhaps a slight edge to the Talalay.

But there's more ... and if this turns out to be correct ... you heard it here first :)

In an earlier thread that you were asking about the Bellafina ... I worked out the density of the latex based on the percentage weight of each material on the law tag and the known thickness of each material. While I was at it I also worked out the density of the polyfoam core and the memory foam on top. The latex worked out to be a density that suggested SBR or blended Dunlop although this is not necessarily true. The polyfoam also worked out to their published specs (a little under but then it's also convoluted which would reduce its overall density so it seemed to be correct). The memory foam however worked out to be less than 5.3 lbs density. This was curious so I checked my math and there was nothing wrong that I could see.

So I went out to the store and took a picture of several law tags (with the willing help of the store owner who knew why I was doing this and was a great guy and also curious). I then did the same calculation on several of their mattresses using the percentage weights of each material (including some 7 lb memory foam in the HD series and some 4.2 lb memory foam in the cloud series) ... and ALL of their memory foam worked out to be under the published density.

This was several weeks ago and quite frankly I am a little puzzled. I can't find anything wrong with my math but the results are there in front of me. I also find it hard to believe that Tempurpedic has changed the density of their memory foam without changing their law tags ... so I really don't know what to think.

This could mean that Tempurpedic has changed their formulation and is using a different foam and that their law tags haven't caught up. Speculation could also take me in the direction of MDI foam vs TDI foam where density and feel have more diversity and wider possibilities. It could also mean that they have simply used cheaper memory foam. Whatever the case ... and without translating any of this into "fact" because I could simply be missing something I don't know about yet ... it has certainly introduced another possible variable into the durability of Tempurpedic for better or for worse.

I've been "sitting on" this information for weeks and I'm hoping that others will duplicate my "experiment" and either confirm what I came up with or find out where I went wrong. I thought I'd post my speculation now though and I've mentioned this to a few people so perhaps there will be more discussion about this in time.

Anyway ... this is the best "layer by layer" comparison I can make even though there is some "prediction" and "speculation" involved. With the typical pricing between the two ... I would say that the BE has better value (the Alpine is $1600 queen) than the Bellafina ($2599 queen).

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Due diligence on pocket coil mattresses 20 Nov 2011 06:25 #19

  • SleeplessinDallas
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Wow. This is a very interesting twist. I have to say, nothing surprises me anymore with these big name brands. Your calculations are beyond my understanding, so not sure I can replicate, but would be interesting if others find the same.

I'm hoping to get my husband back to Sovn soon to try the Willow C and go from there. Have done a little digging on independent groups as well.

How long has natural talalay been used? I know the older latex beds that some people still have hanging around (including my parents) are dunlop I believe. Maybe by Uniroyal?

Honestly, if you feel that we can expect the BE coils to hold up for at least 10 years or so, I do like that you can just replace the 2" latex piece if needed in say 5 years for like ~$500 or less.

Sorry for the delayed response this week- was traveling for work.

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Re: Due diligence on pocket coil mattresses 21 Nov 2011 00:44 #20

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Hi Sleepless,

100% NR talalay has been available since early 2005 (at least by latex international). I'm not sure when Radium started producing it but it would also be "relatively" recently. The NR talalay version was more in response to consumer desire for more natural materials rather than a desire to produce a "better" or more durable material. The talalay process itself has been around since the late 1940's . Most of the "decades old" stories about latex mattresses would be from Dunlop single layer mattresses which were commonly sold as single layer mattresses or from blended Talalay.

I certainly believe that the BE coils are durable and would hold up for much longer than 10 years. If anything ... the NR talalay in this mattress would be the "weakest link" although I would expect that it too would hold up for 10 years or longer and like you say can always be replaced for far less than the cost of a whole mattress. I personally like the NR talalay in terms of its slightly greater elasticity and feel even though I know that it may be less durable than the blend.

All in all ... the BE is a good choice IMO in terms of materials and durability and the only way you may be able to do "better" in terms of a mattress that fit your preferences and needs would be through other independent manufacturers which use similar materials in their mattress.

An example of a similar mattress is the Diamond Maple Hybrid which was under discussion in this thread . There are some similar style mattresses (although not exact duplicates) made by one of our members (Parklane in Washington and Oregon) here as well for reference.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.
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