Hi gkmaya,

OK ... that also helps a lot

I thought from your previous comment that you used both together but I understand now that it was either one or the other and that with either of them over the 40 ILD talalay core that you felt that you were sinking in too far with your hips.

I understand this feeling too ... but in the end it will turn out fine. It's just a matter of getting to the best layering for both of you ... and understanding the "why" behind your symptoms and the layers that are "causing it". Part of this is to make sure that the "specs" of what you were using are understood so that the "direction" of any necessary changes can be better.

I have just a couple more questions to help me clarify what has been comfortable (and uncomfortable) for you in the past as this can play an important role in what may be your best choices now.

My understanding is that the carbamate mattress you liked previously was the DreamBed which is a single slab of superfirm carbamate and not the DreamBed Deluxe which has 2.25" of supersoft foam on top of the carbamate.

This single slab of carbamate was what you put the Novaform memory foam topper on top of which was comfortable for many years.

If this is correct ... then what you are experiencing begins to make sense.

The carbamate super firm has an ILD of 45 ... which over time would have softened a bit. This is much firmer than almost all side sleepers would be comfortable on as there is not enough softness on top to provide pressure relief for the hips and shoulders. This would be a more typical choice for a back or stomach sleeper and even then they would likely need a softer layer on top for pressure relief.

This firmness was probably the reason why you added the memory foam topper. The Novaform topper is very very soft as it is only 2.5" of low density memory foam. It would also become even softer very quickly as this is the type of memory foam which breaks down quite quickly. At this point it is probably even less than the equivalent of 10 ILD. With a layer of very soft memory foam that was only 2.5" thick ... you would "go through it" and feel the much firmer carbamate underneath it. This would be considered a "very firm" mattress with little cushioning. Because this also seemed to work when it was put on top of the Aeorbed ... this indicates to me that you prefer a thin and ultra soft comfort layer on top of a very firm support layer.

While the 3" of 19 ILD latex would be considered by almost everyone as being very soft ... because you are used to something even softer and thinner on top ... you are feeling this as being too firm which may be the reason your wife is feeling pressure in her shoulders. This would be softer than most people would use but it is firmer than you are used to.

In addition to this ... it is also thicker than you are used to so your hips would be sinking down into the mattress more than with the 2.5" of memory foam on top of the firm carbamate. The 19 ILD is firm enough to "hold up" your shoulders because of your lighter weight (which you don't want) and yet cause pressure on the shoulders because it is firmer than the memory foam you are used to. It is also too thick to keep your hips up as high as you are used to (your hips are sinking through 3" before being "stopped" rather than the thinner memory foam layer you are used to).

I confirmed that the 40 ILD talalay is the blended talalay and this would be only slightly softer than the "softened" carbamate. Even though it is only slightly softer ... you are likely very sensitive to any increased sinking in of your hips so for you this may seem to be softer than it really is. For most side sleepers, both the Talalay and the carbamate would be far too firm for most side sleepers to sleep on directly or even with a very soft and thin memory foam or super soft polyfoam on top (which let them feel the firmer foam underneath) and they would need a thicker comfort layer to "isolate them" from its firmness (like the 3" of 19 ILD talalay you are using now) even though a thinner softer comfort layer seems to work well for you.

Finally ... in addition to this ... because you are used to sleeping on a very firm mattress with only a thin and very soft comfort layer .... your body has likely become used to this feeling and alignment. Even if this alignment was not totally "correct" and a new mattress was supporting your spine in a more natural "S" curve ... this new "S" curve could easily cause discomfort because the spine has grown accustomed to a certain position. This would lead to your perception that your hips are sinking in too far and for you ... they probably are. You would also not be used to the feeling of a firmer foam "filling in" and supporting the lumbar gap and this too may be uncomfortable and lead to some of the issues you are experiencing.

So what this is all telling me is that you need a thinner AND a softer comfort layer which would more closely resemble the 5.5" of carbamate with the Novaform on top. Latex only comes in an ILD as low as 14 and most outlets don't carry this although they could likely order it. Even this "ultra soft" talalay would be firmer than the Novaform memory foam ... although it would be the closest "match". Because it would be more supportive than memory foam and would "hold up your hips" slightly higher ... then 2" of this ultra soft latex would likely approximate the 2.5" of memory foam the closest. This would allow your shoulders to sink in to the comfort layers more and still allow the very firm 40 ILD talalay latex to "stop" your hips from sinking down further than you were used to. If this was still not right for you ... then the alternative would be to use either memory foam or a polyfoam topper such as the DreamBed Deluxe to approximate what you had before (and because both of these would have a lower ILD than the latex ... they would probably need to be a little thicker than 2".

I believe that it may also be a good idea to try the tri-zone Dunlop even though its ILD rating is softer than the Talalay. The reason for this is that while it may be softer with only 25% compression (25% is how it is rated) ... it will be firmer when it compressed more than this (because Dunlop gets firmer faster than Talalay).

So I believe that your "feedback" points to a softer thinner comfort layer over either the current Talalay or perhaps even better the tri zone Dunlop. The Dunlop may also work better for your wife and the pressure in her shoulders because it is slightly softer than the Talalay when it is compressed a little bit (helping pressure relief) while it is slightly firmer when it is compressed more deeply (helping both of you with alignment). If 14 ILD is not available ... then a memory foam or supersoft foam comfort layer would probably be your next best choice.

Since what both you and your body is used to a layering that is a little "outside the norm" ... then all of this should be confirmed with actually laying on a mattress and confirming that the pressure relief and alignment worked for both of you. In cases like yours ... actual experience is far more important than a "theory" which may be "perfect" for most "average" people but not for any particular individual.

Your experience sleeping directly on the 40 ILD talalay will also be very helpful.

Hope this helps ... and we'll get there

Phoenix

PS: just saw your last post while I was posting this so comments coming ...

Hi gkmaya,

You are correct that talalay latex is more resilient or what some people call "bouncy" or "springy" than polyfoam like the carbamate. This may also point to the blended Dunlop being a better choice ... at least in terms of matching what you are more used to ... as it feels "less bouncy" than talalay.

I agree that you need more pressure relief than a 40 ILD layer would provide and it would literally shock me if this gave you the pressure relief you needed. There are some people who are OK with a much firmer comfort layer than most ... and there would be more tall and thin people in this category than other body types ... but even here 40 ILD would be very firm.

It seems to me as well that you both need additional pressure relief but as mentioned in my last post that it should be both thinner and softer than 3" of 19 ILD talalay.

So the signs seem to be pointing to the Dunlop as a base (even if its is rated or even actually softer than the Talalay at 25% compression) with either an ultra soft 2" talalay comfort layer or slightly thicker memory foam or ultra soft polyfoam. All of this of course should be confirmed with some time spent in the store to check these combinations for pressure relief and alignment (now that you are "sensitized" to the feelings that are "wrong" you should be able to come very close to telling what feels "right" with some experimenting in the store even though you won't be sleeping on them all night).

Phoenix

you're comments have been very helpful and so we are thinking of changing the talalay for the dunlop..BUT, according to dixie foam the dunlop is 60/40 blended, natural/synthetic..and they said it is made by latexo form canada..i looked up latexco, with a "c" and tey are in the USA and latexo, without the "c" seems to have something to do with indi..do you ave any way of finding out about the dixie foam dunlop mattress..the reason i went wit the talalay to start wit was that i knew it was made by Latex international in Conn and that they have a good reputation ..

if the dunlop dixie has seems to check out then we will do the dunlop. Dixie is ope to 5 today so we will go and deal wit this topper but need to know about he dunlop

you have been extremely helpful and i would like to show all this info to the owner of Dixie foam if you do not mind..thanks again and I am anxious to know if you know who or where their dunlop is made..

Hi gkmaya,

Latexco is a latex manufacturer based in Belgium. They do make Dunlop latex toppers in the US but their Dunlop Cores are made in Belgium and then shipped to the US where they are distributed. www.furnituretoday.com/article/159789-Be...latex_production.php

They make good quality latex although blended Dunlop (called Durolux) is the least expensive of their mattress core lineup. It would be a good choice for a mattress with a latex core in a lower budget range (for latex) such as what you are looking at. It is not as expensive as Talalay latex even though it is more (and better quality IMO) than polyfoam when used as a support core.

I talked with Dixie foam today but unfortunately they had customers in the store so we didn't get a chance to finish our conversation. They seemed very open and helpful to me and know about this website and forum. This is how I knew that the extra firm carbamate was 45 ILD (the medium firm is 36 ILD). Hopefully we will get a chance to finish our conversation later today.

The Latexco they order is sourced from Canada but actually poured in Belgium which is why they said what they said. I finished our conversation since the last paragraph and I have confidence that they are giving you good information including information about how something feels in a showroom and how that compares to how it may feel when you actually sleep on it initially and over the course of a few weeks. I also told them about my "suggestions" and the "why" behind them and they are thinking the same as I am for circumstances like yours. The 2.25" soft polyfoam topper that they use in the Deluxe is 1.8 lb density and will feel firmer at first but will soften into supersoft within a few weeks. They don't carry the 14 ILD talalay in stock but can order it if you decide to go in that direction. Their memory foam is also 5 lb and so much higher quality than the memory foam you are using now and this too may feel a little firmer at first but will soften in the first few weeks of use (and won't wear out nearly as fast as the much cheaper Novaform which by now would likely be very very soft).

Hopefully this will help you get to your best final configuration.

Phoenix

Phoenix--the amount of info and time yo have given this is wonderful and admirable..thank o..i am happy to hear about your conversation with Dixie Foam...i think that we may try the 14 ild latex topper..on a dunlop core..hopeflly that is enough pressure relief and not too hard for my wife..will let you know the results...thanks again.

Hi Phoenix--we finally did get it right--we created a 9" latex mattress by using the 6" dunlop mattress from Dixie Foam as our core layer(which Dixie says is medium firm) . Then on top of that we have the Dixie Foam 3" 19ILD Talalay latex topper. We were not comfortable on these two latex layers by themselves as we still needed some pressure relieving layer, so we got a plush wool and cotton topper. I had my doubts, but it really is great. The cover is made in Canada by Natura and it is called the Comfort Plus wool topper and it was the addition of that topper that made the bed finally feel like $3000-$5000 mattresses we had tried at the specialty latex mattress stores....anyhow,,,,We highly recommend this combination...we first tried a regular pillow top mattress cover and a foam bed mattress cover over the two latex layers since they are less expensive than the wool and cotton ones, but they really weren't great... the Natura wool and cotton cover over these latex layers gives it the feel we were expecting when we started all of this...we feel as if we have finally emerged from mattress hell..Dixie Foam NYC was great...thanks for all your help.

Hi gkmaya,

I'm thrilled that you did so well and congratulations on your new mattress

What I also like in how you put your sleeping system together is how it is similar to a more European style with a separate topper.

Dunlop latex for great support, softer Talalay for great pressure relief, and a separate high quality wool mattress pad (Natura is great even though as you say they can be on the expensive side) for protection and the "final touch" and giving you wool to sleep on for breathability and a great microclimate. The best part is that the components can be changed in the future if your needs change or if one component wears out before the other without having to start all over again with a new mattress. They are all high quality materials.

I'm glad too that Dixie Foam too was as helpful as they were.

I think you did well and it's nice to see that you persevered until you were happy.

Phoenix